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I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or

I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye opening.

markus_zhang 7y ago
It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.
- wrs 7y ago
  "I can't imagine any other government could do better." Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  So "better" entirely depends on your values, right? Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees?" Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness. There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of argumentation.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Of course it depends on my own values. Aren't you the same? I'm sorry I don't accept your values, but I'm OK if you don't accept mine.
  - morpheuskafka 7y ago
    Not only is there the inherent moral value of freedom, but from a purely material standpoint, if the government has the right to take away your precious job and full belly for any reason, you don't really own it at all.
- Joakal 7y ago
  How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.
    - Joakal 7y ago
      There's none. That's why people rely on elections and news to hear about events even if they are not favourable to the government. Better informed people can then keep the bastards honest. When you don't have either, what can you do about it?
      - markus_zhang 7y ago
        We do have both. The election doesn't work the same way as in other countries, but I'd be lying if I say there is none. For the news, you can find quite a lot of news that are not favorable to the government on weibo/wechat if you read Chinese. I don't fully agree with censorship (they do serve some good I must say that), but it's not black and white. I'm also very pessimistic about "better-informed" people. Receiving news from different sources doesn't make you just. You can't receive A and B and just average them.
        shkkmo 7y ago
        > I'm also very pessimistic about "better-informed" people. Receiving news from different sources doesn't make you just. You can't receive A and B and just average them. ... you don't average them. You use critical thinking to evaluate the information with regards to its sources, their agendas and integrate those sources. When there are contradictions you try to understand why.
- PixyMisa 7y ago
  China is a one-party state where even the army belongs to the party. It's possible to imagine something worse; we've had plenty of examples, unfortunately. It's easy to imagine something better.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    I'd love to imagine, but in reality TBH I don't see a lot of positive examples. If you hate the one-party idea, just think one more layer -- there are factions inside the party, probably more than 2 actually.
    - EarthMephit 7y ago
      New Zealand, all the Nordic countries, many western democracies all provide very good examples of good government without jailing people who speak up against their rulers and without strict censorship laws They are all really nice countries to live in too
      - umeshunni 7y ago
        New Zealand and all the Nordic countries can fit into a suburb of Shanghai. I think most westerners don't realize the magnitude of China and that managing/ruling/governing a country of 1.3B diverse citizens with thousands of a years of history is a larger challenge than managing a small country.
- zwaps 7y ago
  Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries. The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independent countries, censoring and even harvesting organs of prisoners for profit (probably for political elites). And most of those things on a scale previously unimaginable. Furthermore, one might argue (and I am not saying this is black and white) that the process of raising people out of poverty has as much to do with technical progress, foreign trade and China's geographical and demographic makeup, as it has to do with actual policy (and one could therefore imagine even better outcomes!) I think it is indeed very easy to imagine things going better in China! That's the entire point, I think. Citizens should be willing and able to be unhappy with their governments, and be able to express this without disappearing. That you can not imagine anyone doing better in China is what the OP was talking about. Edit: Just to make this clear, I do not want a discussion on the merits of the CCPs policies - everyone can have their own opinion on that - much like for any other country. But the worry is the well rehearsed narrative that China is somehow unique and requires, basically, an iron fist rule. This I have seen many times in discussions with Chinese - saying that all these criticisms may be good and well for other countries, but not for China. And this in the end amounts to unwillingness to question the CCP in any way. And that, I think, is not good.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    I can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real. I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable. Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good. Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about these as I'll say you don't have true proofs and you will say I'm brainwashed, we will never agree to each other. Organ harvesting actually does happen, I can say for that, because I just read a report (in Chinese btw) a few days ago, but it was not large scale and definitely not in the ideology. 2) Suppressing free speech: Yes that's one of the bad, but TBH you can blame the government online as much as you want because so many other people are doing the same...people seldom got caught JUST because of that. For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more. 3) Questionable economic measures: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? 4) Strongarming other independent countries: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? Just the real world, more the reason that people should work hard instead of dreaming about vacations to fight off these strongarmings. TBH with the economic strength of China it is quite peaceful... In short, citizens are indeed able to express their unhappy with the government, and a lot of people (in the mainland) protest, too. The weird thing about my western friends is that they seem to be pretty scared about China, and I honestly can't tell why...
- seppin 7y ago
  > The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK Are people really just ok with concentration camps in 2019?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

markus_zhang 7y ago

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

wrs 7y ago
"I can't imagine any other government could do better." Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ryanobjc 7y ago
So "better" entirely depends on your values, right? Ever heard of the phrase "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees?" Not everyone shares the ethos that a full belly is happiness and goodness. There is more to life than mere material goods. What makes a life worth living even? I guess if you have a job all is good, at least as per your line of argumentation.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Of course it depends on my own values. Aren't you the same? I'm sorry I don't accept your values, but I'm OK if you don't accept mine.
- morpheuskafka 7y ago
  Not only is there the inherent moral value of freedom, but from a purely material standpoint, if the government has the right to take away your precious job and full belly for any reason, you don't really own it at all.
Joakal 7y ago
How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.
  - Joakal 7y ago
    There's none. That's why people rely on elections and news to hear about events even if they are not favourable to the government. Better informed people can then keep the bastards honest. When you don't have either, what can you do about it?
    - markus_zhang 7y ago
      We do have both. The election doesn't work the same way as in other countries, but I'd be lying if I say there is none. For the news, you can find quite a lot of news that are not favorable to the government on weibo/wechat if you read Chinese. I don't fully agree with censorship (they do serve some good I must say that), but it's not black and white. I'm also very pessimistic about "better-informed" people. Receiving news from different sources doesn't make you just. You can't receive A and B and just average them.
      - shkkmo 7y ago
        > I'm also very pessimistic about "better-informed" people. Receiving news from different sources doesn't make you just. You can't receive A and B and just average them. ... you don't average them. You use critical thinking to evaluate the information with regards to its sources, their agendas and integrate those sources. When there are contradictions you try to understand why.
PixyMisa 7y ago
China is a one-party state where even the army belongs to the party. It's possible to imagine something worse; we've had plenty of examples, unfortunately. It's easy to imagine something better.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  I'd love to imagine, but in reality TBH I don't see a lot of positive examples. If you hate the one-party idea, just think one more layer -- there are factions inside the party, probably more than 2 actually.
  - EarthMephit 7y ago
    New Zealand, all the Nordic countries, many western democracies all provide very good examples of good government without jailing people who speak up against their rulers and without strict censorship laws They are all really nice countries to live in too
    - umeshunni 7y ago
      New Zealand and all the Nordic countries can fit into a suburb of Shanghai. I think most westerners don't realize the magnitude of China and that managing/ruling/governing a country of 1.3B diverse citizens with thousands of a years of history is a larger challenge than managing a small country.
zwaps 7y ago
Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries. The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independent countries, censoring and even harvesting organs of prisoners for profit (probably for political elites). And most of those things on a scale previously unimaginable. Furthermore, one might argue (and I am not saying this is black and white) that the process of raising people out of poverty has as much to do with technical progress, foreign trade and China's geographical and demographic makeup, as it has to do with actual policy (and one could therefore imagine even better outcomes!) I think it is indeed very easy to imagine things going better in China! That's the entire point, I think. Citizens should be willing and able to be unhappy with their governments, and be able to express this without disappearing. That you can not imagine anyone doing better in China is what the OP was talking about. Edit: Just to make this clear, I do not want a discussion on the merits of the CCPs policies - everyone can have their own opinion on that - much like for any other country. But the worry is the well rehearsed narrative that China is somehow unique and requires, basically, an iron fist rule. This I have seen many times in discussions with Chinese - saying that all these criticisms may be good and well for other countries, but not for China. And this in the end amounts to unwillingness to question the CCP in any way. And that, I think, is not good.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  I can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real. I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable. Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good. Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about these as I'll say you don't have true proofs and you will say I'm brainwashed, we will never agree to each other. Organ harvesting actually does happen, I can say for that, because I just read a report (in Chinese btw) a few days ago, but it was not large scale and definitely not in the ideology. 2) Suppressing free speech: Yes that's one of the bad, but TBH you can blame the government online as much as you want because so many other people are doing the same...people seldom got caught JUST because of that. For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more. 3) Questionable economic measures: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? 4) Strongarming other independent countries: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? Just the real world, more the reason that people should work hard instead of dreaming about vacations to fight off these strongarmings. TBH with the economic strength of China it is quite peaceful... In short, citizens are indeed able to express their unhappy with the government, and a lot of people (in the mainland) protest, too. The weird thing about my western friends is that they seem to be pretty scared about China, and I honestly can't tell why...
seppin 7y ago
> The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK Are people really just ok with concentration camps in 2019?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]