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Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their fami

by Joakal 7y ago

Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan Democracy experiment and Tiananmen Square (Both asked for democracy as a peaceful resolution)? If they do for either, are they aware of the list of demands from protestors (China has been trying to portray the events as destructive people and censor the demands). All of this is on Wikipedia and many news websites. Which are censored in China for a good reason.

iLoch 7y ago
I like this more than my own answer. Asking them if they understand the motivations of the protesters is an excellent line of questioning.
bgee 7y ago
> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China. Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.
- Joakal 7y ago
  The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if they specifically ask for independence, they will get shot.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.
    - PixyMisa 7y ago
      > Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - bgee 7y ago
    There are numerous folks who openly demand a fully independent Hong Kong, one of them actually ran for Legislative Council[0]. I don't think the reason for people not mentioning independence is because they worry about their personal safety. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung edit: full -> fully
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?
  - Joakal 7y ago
    It's probably not their fault. There was a leaked propaganda document saying to portray HongKong people as violent rioters, censor police brutality and censor mentions of protestors apologizing for disruptions. Look at Youtube channels like CGTN and Nathan Rich to see what they hear and you'll know what they don't hear.
  - bgee 7y ago
    The protesters have very specific demands, why do we need to guess? If most of the citizens actually demand full independence, I'm sure they will make themselves heard, like what they are doing now. And who are "most of the world"? Has the world reached a unified conclusion on what the people of Hong Kong want?
- nailer 7y ago
  Do you think the CCP will ever respect two systems? How do you think autocratic governments handle corruption compared to democracies?
- cthalupa 7y ago
  This isn't the first set of protests in HK, and they all have a universal thread: Issues with mainland oversight of HK The extradition bill is just the latest one. Many protestors have explicitly called for independence. Most are simply demanding things that are not possible with HK as a mainland managed province with the current powers that be in Beijing, and I can't imagine that they don't know this - it's a de facto desire for independence. If the ROC was magically in charge, then HK probably wouldn't care about being independent.

by Joakal 7y ago

iLoch 7y ago

I like this more than my own answer. Asking them if they understand the motivations of the protesters is an excellent line of questioning.

bgee 7y ago

> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China. Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.

Joakal 7y ago
The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if they specifically ask for independence, they will get shot.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.
  - PixyMisa 7y ago
    > Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- bgee 7y ago
  There are numerous folks who openly demand a fully independent Hong Kong, one of them actually ran for Legislative Council[0]. I don't think the reason for people not mentioning independence is because they worry about their personal safety. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung edit: full -> fully
ryanobjc 7y ago
So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?
- Joakal 7y ago
  It's probably not their fault. There was a leaked propaganda document saying to portray HongKong people as violent rioters, censor police brutality and censor mentions of protestors apologizing for disruptions. Look at Youtube channels like CGTN and Nathan Rich to see what they hear and you'll know what they don't hear.
- bgee 7y ago
  The protesters have very specific demands, why do we need to guess? If most of the citizens actually demand full independence, I'm sure they will make themselves heard, like what they are doing now. And who are "most of the world"? Has the world reached a unified conclusion on what the people of Hong Kong want?
nailer 7y ago
Do you think the CCP will ever respect two systems? How do you think autocratic governments handle corruption compared to democracies?
cthalupa 7y ago
This isn't the first set of protests in HK, and they all have a universal thread: Issues with mainland oversight of HK The extradition bill is just the latest one. Many protestors have explicitly called for independence. Most are simply demanding things that are not possible with HK as a mainland managed province with the current powers that be in Beijing, and I can't imagine that they don't know this - it's a de facto desire for independence. If the ROC was magically in charge, then HK probably wouldn't care about being independent.