4 ms·

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government pro

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For example, the mainland Chinese government has been painting the HK protests as the work of a tiny terrorist minority, so solidly commented footage of 1M+ peaceful protesters should jar their world view a little.

realplayer6 7y ago
what is "Chinese government propaganda"?
Joakal 7y ago
Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan Democracy experiment and Tiananmen Square (Both asked for democracy as a peaceful resolution)? If they do for either, are they aware of the list of demands from protestors (China has been trying to portray the events as destructive people and censor the demands). All of this is on Wikipedia and many news websites. Which are censored in China for a good reason.
- iLoch 7y ago
  I like this more than my own answer. Asking them if they understand the motivations of the protesters is an excellent line of questioning.
- bgee 7y ago
  > independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China. Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.
  - Joakal 7y ago
    The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if they specifically ask for independence, they will get shot.
    - markus_zhang 7y ago
      Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.
      - PixyMisa 7y ago
        > Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - bgee 7y ago
      There are numerous folks who openly demand a fully independent Hong Kong, one of them actually ran for Legislative Council[0]. I don't think the reason for people not mentioning independence is because they worry about their personal safety. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung edit: full -> fully
  - ryanobjc 7y ago
    So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?
iLoch 7y ago
Actually I was trying to find a simple question, and I came across an example of the same sort of spouting of Chinese government propaganda. Check this out: https://www.quora.com/Are-children-in-China-taught-about-the-Tiananmen-Square-massacre-in-their-schools https://www.quora.com/Are-children-in-China-taught-about-the... I think it's interesting to ask people who are educated in China what they think about the Tiananmen Square Massacre. For instance, what do they think about this photo? https://i.imgur.com/0zAQqAO.png https://i.imgur.com/0zAQqAO.png Though, this line of questioning may be met with hostility. So I suppose you could ask them why they're angry about evidence of a massacre of their own people.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
hos234 7y ago
You don't "jar" people into Learning anything. That is why the late night comedian brigade and the bombastic news reader class (don't call them journalists) have never managed to change anyone's minds, irrespective of how many years of likes, laughs and claps they get from their own fan clubs. It's true of the left and the right. Jaring (blaming/shaming/guilt triping) or shaking people up is not a teaching technique that works. And you have to think of it as Teaching. Good teachers don't just shake people up. They know Learning takes Time, A LOT OF TIME. And different subjects require a deep understanding of how much time. Without a sense of that it easy to screw up the learning process and produce outcomes that don't make sense. You can throw a baby into water, and some have an anti-drowning reflex, that can trigger some learning (about swimming). But many don't and you end up with dead babies. The tragic Story of misguided teaching practices, doesn't usually end there. Those who don't end up with dead babies, easily fool themselves into thinking that they have some great insight into teaching. And they apply it to other subjects, like throwing babies into metaphorical Tiger cages. In this particular case involving China, you don't attack/blame/judge your friends or hold them accountable or guilt trip them or shame them. That won't produce any learning. Guaranteed. Expect only defensiveness and counter attacks. It you really truly want to spark learning you just point at the articles and STOP. No blaming/shaming/guilt tripping/judgement passing/sarcasm/correcting/fact checking/finding logical holes etc. And then give it time. Learning how to handle Tigers takes time. Reset that expectation and watch the seeds planted grow.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  I'm not sure how you read all that into my comment. I was simply asking for examples of good articles to send to them.
  - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
    On the reverse side, is there anything they could send you to change your beliefs?
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
GuiA 7y ago
Equally serious question: Why do you want to plant seeds of doubt? I suspect you are likely to answer something like “because it’s for their own good”, or “because they have a right to the Truth”. Have you considered that what is good/true for people is heavily dependent on their personal circumstances? If, after planting those seeds of doubt, your friend or one of their family members suddenly disappears and you never hear from them ever again, what part of the burden will you choose to bear?
- dirtyid 7y ago
  The amount of anecdotes of "my Chinese coworker/girlfriend/wife" (never boyfriend/husband) is brainwashed and the savior complexes that arise is intriguing. In general, mainland Chinese nationals / ex-Citizens who work in the west are typically well educated and intelligent. Why is it so hard to believe that they have reconciled both Chinese and Western narratives and arrived at the conclusions that they feel is appropriate having dual perspectives and experiences, i.e. they have broader understanding of the topic than one lens and if overwhelmingly these people are still pro-Chinese positions, then perhaps incorporate that data instead of dismiss it as brainwashing. If seeing your extended families quality of life improve every year and experiencing first hand Chinese tier1 cities and infrastructure eclipsing development in the west is brainwashing, then I hope the West adopt it.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    > "If seeing your extended families quality of life improve every year and experiencing first hand Chinese tier1 cities and infrastructure eclipsing development in the west is brainwashing, then I hope the West adopt it." This is not what the West is criticizing and calling "brain washing". Rather it's locking up critical book publishers and journalists, lying through state sponsored media and doing actual brain washing to millions of muslims. These are all things the West has done too, and we realized that was all bad and not in the least necessary for economic growth, so we created strong constitutions founded in human rights to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
stringroll 7y ago
Share them the document 9 leak: http://www.chinafile.com/document-9-chinafile-translation http://www.chinafile.com/document-9-chinafile-translation It's a memo that warns of the 7 deadly "Western Values." Some of the key points in the memo is that the Communist Party is above the law, and that party members should not encourage any form of constitutional governance or separation of power. You as an individual have no right to due process, and so that means if there are powerful party members that do not like you, they have every power to not follow any rules, and so they can kidnap you and torture you and seize assets from you without any form of judicial independence, and because independent media isn't allowed you cannot just reach out toward the public for help. In fact, the Chief Justice of China has said: "[China's courts] must firmly resist the western idea of “constitutional democracy”, “separation of powers” and “judicial independence”. These are erroneous western notions that threaten the leadership of the ruling Communist Party and defame the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law. We have to raise our flag and show our sword to struggle against such thoughts. We must not fall into the trap of western thoughts and judicial independence. We must stay firm on the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law."[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Qiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Qiang] You see , this is one reason for the Hong Kong protests, in that they do not trust the Communist Party since the party doesn't have to play by the rules. Explain to your friends that there is a limit to what you can trust in any media, even in the West. You always have to look at who owns in the media, and the majority of the media in Mainland China is controlled by the Communist Party. Hence, you cannot really trust the Mainland Chinese Media would be critical of the party actions/mistakes . In fact from the memo, it says any "historical reassessing" of past party mistakes isn't allowed as it threatens the face of the party. The "Fourth Estate" or "Free flow of information" also threatens the party's position in power. I suggest showing your friend this video on how the party has been constricting the free flow information about the Hong Kong protests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFE49oo__8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFE49oo__8 to build this alternate reality of what is happening on the ground. Lastly, make the point to separate China as a country from the Communist Party itself. Criticizing the party dosen't mean criticizing him/her as a Chinese person.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
Politics is an emotional thing. It's unfortunately also a selfish thing. Both aspects must be kept in mind when saying or doing anything if the topic is political or religious. (Or anything else guided by emotion.) Positive reinforcement works best. Find something that will make them feel good, that also breaks their bad habits. In this case, specially the habit of taking in news sources that lie. This is far more difficult than it sounds. Negative reinforcement / negative emotions, seems to only work when they agree with it. You can steer someone's thinking this way towards a positive path, but usually negative feelings are to be avoided at all costs. This includes talking about conflicting information. So, for example, if I was in your situation, it may not be an ideal answer, but I might talk about the fairness doctrine and how much propaganda we have in the US. If they already believe we are biased, this will have a positive emotional response, because the facts are in agreement. The trick with this is talking about how in our news it used to be illegal to lie to people. By talking about the fairness doctrine you plant a seed of how things could be done -- a better way. This will not change their views, but that seed will slowly grow into something much more months to years from now, because they'll start questioning their own news sources. This happens in part because explaining the fairness doctrine explains one way to guarantee the news is not biased. This is done by giving equal time to opposing views. The seed then becomes, "This news source isn't giving an opposing view along side it." and then it becomes, "Maybe I should look at multiple news sources to get an honest take." Though, usually it will be an acknowledgement of how fucked up it is, without the effort taken to learn the real truth. Either way, that imho is one of the few seeds you can plant that will open people's eyes.
bubble_talk 7y ago
Ask them how they would invest their money if they suddenly became 100x richer, which for most people isn't something they can easily comprehend. If their answers veer towards things like buying property abroad (or similar stuff indicating they don't believe there actually is any rule of law in their own country), then you can ask them why they are not investing in their own country if they truly believe in their views about it. When asked to put their money where their mouth is, the actions of people speak far, far louder than their words.

realplayer6 7y ago

what is "Chinese government propaganda"?

Joakal 7y ago

Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan Democracy experiment and Tiananmen Square (Both asked for democracy as a peaceful resolution)? If they do for either, are they aware of the list of demands from protestors (China has been trying to portray the events as destructive people and censor the demands). All of this is on Wikipedia and many news websites. Which are censored in China for a good reason.

iLoch 7y ago
I like this more than my own answer. Asking them if they understand the motivations of the protesters is an excellent line of questioning.
bgee 7y ago
> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China. Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese.
- Joakal 7y ago
  The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if they specifically ask for independence, they will get shot.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That said, I guess it's equally difficult for people to imagine that Chinese government has been very, very generous to the Hong Kong people. But that's generally true from a Chinese' pov. Generous to the point that a lot of mainlanders are actively complaining on online forums.
    - PixyMisa 7y ago
      > Some people are actually asking for independence and they were not getting shot. That is considered a fairly low bar by Western standards.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - bgee 7y ago
    There are numerous folks who openly demand a fully independent Hong Kong, one of them actually ran for Legislative Council[0]. I don't think the reason for people not mentioning independence is because they worry about their personal safety. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung edit: full -> fully
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?

iLoch 7y ago

Actually I was trying to find a simple question, and I came across an example of the same sort of spouting of Chinese government propaganda. Check this out: https://www.quora.com/Are-children-in-China-taught-about-the-Tiananmen-Square-massacre-in-their-schools https://www.quora.com/Are-children-in-China-taught-about-the... I think it's interesting to ask people who are educated in China what they think about the Tiananmen Square Massacre. For instance, what do they think about this photo? https://i.imgur.com/0zAQqAO.png https://i.imgur.com/0zAQqAO.png Though, this line of questioning may be met with hostility. So I suppose you could ask them why they're angry about evidence of a massacre of their own people.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

hos234 7y ago

You don't "jar" people into Learning anything. That is why the late night comedian brigade and the bombastic news reader class (don't call them journalists) have never managed to change anyone's minds, irrespective of how many years of likes, laughs and claps they get from their own fan clubs. It's true of the left and the right. Jaring (blaming/shaming/guilt triping) or shaking people up is not a teaching technique that works. And you have to think of it as Teaching. Good teachers don't just shake people up. They know Learning takes Time, A LOT OF TIME. And different subjects require a deep understanding of how much time. Without a sense of that it easy to screw up the learning process and produce outcomes that don't make sense. You can throw a baby into water, and some have an anti-drowning reflex, that can trigger some learning (about swimming). But many don't and you end up with dead babies. The tragic Story of misguided teaching practices, doesn't usually end there. Those who don't end up with dead babies, easily fool themselves into thinking that they have some great insight into teaching. And they apply it to other subjects, like throwing babies into metaphorical Tiger cages. In this particular case involving China, you don't attack/blame/judge your friends or hold them accountable or guilt trip them or shame them. That won't produce any learning. Guaranteed. Expect only defensiveness and counter attacks. It you really truly want to spark learning you just point at the articles and STOP. No blaming/shaming/guilt tripping/judgement passing/sarcasm/correcting/fact checking/finding logical holes etc. And then give it time. Learning how to handle Tigers takes time. Reset that expectation and watch the seeds planted grow.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
I'm not sure how you read all that into my comment. I was simply asking for examples of good articles to send to them.
- throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
  On the reverse side, is there anything they could send you to change your beliefs?
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

GuiA 7y ago

Equally serious question: Why do you want to plant seeds of doubt? I suspect you are likely to answer something like “because it’s for their own good”, or “because they have a right to the Truth”. Have you considered that what is good/true for people is heavily dependent on their personal circumstances? If, after planting those seeds of doubt, your friend or one of their family members suddenly disappears and you never hear from them ever again, what part of the burden will you choose to bear?

dirtyid 7y ago
The amount of anecdotes of "my Chinese coworker/girlfriend/wife" (never boyfriend/husband) is brainwashed and the savior complexes that arise is intriguing. In general, mainland Chinese nationals / ex-Citizens who work in the west are typically well educated and intelligent. Why is it so hard to believe that they have reconciled both Chinese and Western narratives and arrived at the conclusions that they feel is appropriate having dual perspectives and experiences, i.e. they have broader understanding of the topic than one lens and if overwhelmingly these people are still pro-Chinese positions, then perhaps incorporate that data instead of dismiss it as brainwashing. If seeing your extended families quality of life improve every year and experiencing first hand Chinese tier1 cities and infrastructure eclipsing development in the west is brainwashing, then I hope the West adopt it.
- pimmen 7y ago
  > "If seeing your extended families quality of life improve every year and experiencing first hand Chinese tier1 cities and infrastructure eclipsing development in the west is brainwashing, then I hope the West adopt it." This is not what the West is criticizing and calling "brain washing". Rather it's locking up critical book publishers and journalists, lying through state sponsored media and doing actual brain washing to millions of muslims. These are all things the West has done too, and we realized that was all bad and not in the least necessary for economic growth, so we created strong constitutions founded in human rights to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

stringroll 7y ago

Share them the document 9 leak: http://www.chinafile.com/document-9-chinafile-translation http://www.chinafile.com/document-9-chinafile-translation It's a memo that warns of the 7 deadly "Western Values." Some of the key points in the memo is that the Communist Party is above the law, and that party members should not encourage any form of constitutional governance or separation of power. You as an individual have no right to due process, and so that means if there are powerful party members that do not like you, they have every power to not follow any rules, and so they can kidnap you and torture you and seize assets from you without any form of judicial independence, and because independent media isn't allowed you cannot just reach out toward the public for help. In fact, the Chief Justice of China has said: "[China's courts] must firmly resist the western idea of “constitutional democracy”, “separation of powers” and “judicial independence”. These are erroneous western notions that threaten the leadership of the ruling Communist Party and defame the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law. We have to raise our flag and show our sword to struggle against such thoughts. We must not fall into the trap of western thoughts and judicial independence. We must stay firm on the Chinese socialist path on the rule of law."[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Qiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Qiang] You see , this is one reason for the Hong Kong protests, in that they do not trust the Communist Party since the party doesn't have to play by the rules. Explain to your friends that there is a limit to what you can trust in any media, even in the West. You always have to look at who owns in the media, and the majority of the media in Mainland China is controlled by the Communist Party. Hence, you cannot really trust the Mainland Chinese Media would be critical of the party actions/mistakes . In fact from the memo, it says any "historical reassessing" of past party mistakes isn't allowed as it threatens the face of the party. The "Fourth Estate" or "Free flow of information" also threatens the party's position in power. I suggest showing your friend this video on how the party has been constricting the free flow information about the Hong Kong protests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFE49oo__8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpFE49oo__8 to build this alternate reality of what is happening on the ground. Lastly, make the point to separate China as a country from the Communist Party itself. Criticizing the party dosen't mean criticizing him/her as a Chinese person.

proverbialbunny 7y ago

Politics is an emotional thing. It's unfortunately also a selfish thing. Both aspects must be kept in mind when saying or doing anything if the topic is political or religious. (Or anything else guided by emotion.) Positive reinforcement works best. Find something that will make them feel good, that also breaks their bad habits. In this case, specially the habit of taking in news sources that lie. This is far more difficult than it sounds. Negative reinforcement / negative emotions, seems to only work when they agree with it. You can steer someone's thinking this way towards a positive path, but usually negative feelings are to be avoided at all costs. This includes talking about conflicting information. So, for example, if I was in your situation, it may not be an ideal answer, but I might talk about the fairness doctrine and how much propaganda we have in the US. If they already believe we are biased, this will have a positive emotional response, because the facts are in agreement. The trick with this is talking about how in our news it used to be illegal to lie to people. By talking about the fairness doctrine you plant a seed of how things could be done -- a better way. This will not change their views, but that seed will slowly grow into something much more months to years from now, because they'll start questioning their own news sources. This happens in part because explaining the fairness doctrine explains one way to guarantee the news is not biased. This is done by giving equal time to opposing views. The seed then becomes, "This news source isn't giving an opposing view along side it." and then it becomes, "Maybe I should look at multiple news sources to get an honest take." Though, usually it will be an acknowledgement of how fucked up it is, without the effort taken to learn the real truth. Either way, that imho is one of the few seeds you can plant that will open people's eyes.

bubble_talk 7y ago

Ask them how they would invest their money if they suddenly became 100x richer, which for most people isn't something they can easily comprehend. If their answers veer towards things like buying property abroad (or similar stuff indicating they don't believe there actually is any rule of law in their own country), then you can ask them why they are not investing in their own country if they truly believe in their views about it. When asked to put their money where their mouth is, the actions of people speak far, far louder than their words.