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Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these internationa

by socrates1998 7y ago

Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay full price tuition. This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in western country.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Wanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s
- booboolayla 7y ago
  And we sure don't miss a chance to deride ourselves when we do it, but God forbid we apply the same standards to everyone else.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  I saw plenty of examples that westerners who do the same...it's just not reported in western medias.
  - 100100010001 7y ago
    The OC was being sarcastic. The USA is the most entitled country! USA citizens even call the country America or ‘Merica’ as if they aren’t part of one of two continents called America (if you’re in the USA then the two continents are North and South). Which means every person trying to cross the USA border is AMERICAN!!!
    - 100100010001 7y ago
      Why the down votes? Which statement is false?
    - 100100010001 7y ago
      Downvoting anonymously without justification seems cowardly.
      - 100100010001 7y ago
        I’ve got five the majority are from the USA.
        tomhoward 7y ago
        I'm not from the USA, I've just been using this site for over 10 years and I'm familiar with the guidelines and norms that ask us not to engage in nationalistic battle ("flamewar topics"), or use all-caps for emphasis, or to complain about downvotes (which seems particularly apt when the likely reason for those downvotes is that multiple guidelines have been broken). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        100100010001 7y ago
        Fair enough. I’m sorry. I’ve been pretty upset about the situation in the USA, and my last few post were definitely based on emotion rather than having a serious discussion. This isn’t a justification for the actions just an explanation of the flaws I have that led to them. I fell prey to the wizard’s third rule... passion rules reason.
        tomhoward 7y ago
        Cheers for the comment, and good on you for the self-reflection. I sympathise with the propensity to get angry over all the things that seem wrong in the world. Is't something I've been working to contain in myself for a long time.
- wtdata 7y ago
  It is weird then, that the all world wants (and feels entitled) to come through our borders and live under our western rules instead the other way around.
- ijiiijji1 7y ago
  There are different cultures with slightly different modalities, but decency is universal. Murder for cannibalism is unacceptable always. Kafkaesque totalitarianism is unacceptable. Shouting-down opponent speakers is unacceptable. Child rape isn't acceptable because it's "their culture."
  - thethirdone 7y ago
    > Murder for cannibalism is unacceptable always. Kafkaesque totalitarianism is unacceptable. Shouting-down opponent speakers is unacceptable. Child rape isn't acceptable because it's "their culture." I think that almost all cultures would agree that murder and child rape are unacceptable, but "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers" is certainly more controversial. [0] The west values democracy and free exchange of ideas, but even in the west failing to uphold those values is not similar to murder. I am certainly not an expert in Chinese values, but maintaining order and obeying social structure seem to be core values in China. I personally don't think they are worth sacrificing the freedoms the west focuses on, but they are worth trying to keep if you can. Those values would not disallow "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers". [0]: I think wrapping the much less clear cases in between murder and child rape is at worst bad-faith arguing and at best revealing of intense biases.
- iamaelephant 7y ago
  Are you arguing that it's fine when Westerners do it, therefore it's fine when the Chinese do it? I'd argue it's not fine when either does it.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Oh, no. It's definitely not fine when either does it. And my intent (which appears to not have been expressed well) was primarily to criticize the Chinese for doing it, while also acknowledging the fault of the West in the same behavior.
- socrates1998 7y ago
  So you think it's okay for Chinese students to abuse and harass the protesters? I don't know what you point is?
hrktb 7y ago
Isn’t it the same issue, and something that needs to be explained and taught to the students coming there to learn?
- socrates1998 7y ago
  Yes, but if you have known a lot of under grad Chinese students, you will know they often don't learn much of anything.
msie 7y ago
A democracy has to tolerate differences in opinion.
- avs733 7y ago
  no, it doesn't. Like literally the purpose of a democracy is to establish government by norms and the establishment of those norms as laws. A democracy exists explicilty to bound law making within a set range of socially acceptable public disourse. To expend a strawman, Jeffrey Epstein seems to think sexual acts with human beings this country views as unable to consent - that is a difference in opinion, but he ended up in jail rather than tolerated. Invite NAMBLA to your next city council meeting and see how that goes. We don't have slaves, but the greeks and romans who had closer to a true democracy surely did. The idea of owning or not owning slaves was tolerated, and debated, in their time - it wouldn't be in our modern democracy.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    You seem to fail to grasp the difference between belief and behavior. Believing that what Epstein did is OK is a belief. Doing what Epstein did is an action. That said, tolerance of differing opinions exist on a continuum and no perfectly tolerant society exists.
avs733 7y ago
I'm just going to assume you are referring to the universities not understanding how to basically behave in a western country and move on with my life.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

Wanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s

booboolayla 7y ago
And we sure don't miss a chance to deride ourselves when we do it, but God forbid we apply the same standards to everyone else.
markus_zhang 7y ago
I saw plenty of examples that westerners who do the same...it's just not reported in western medias.
- 100100010001 7y ago
  The OC was being sarcastic. The USA is the most entitled country! USA citizens even call the country America or ‘Merica’ as if they aren’t part of one of two continents called America (if you’re in the USA then the two continents are North and South). Which means every person trying to cross the USA border is AMERICAN!!!
  - 100100010001 7y ago
    Why the down votes? Which statement is false?
  - 100100010001 7y ago
    Downvoting anonymously without justification seems cowardly.
    - 100100010001 7y ago
      I’ve got five the majority are from the USA.
      - tomhoward 7y ago
        I'm not from the USA, I've just been using this site for over 10 years and I'm familiar with the guidelines and norms that ask us not to engage in nationalistic battle ("flamewar topics"), or use all-caps for emphasis, or to complain about downvotes (which seems particularly apt when the likely reason for those downvotes is that multiple guidelines have been broken). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        100100010001 7y ago
        Fair enough. I’m sorry. I’ve been pretty upset about the situation in the USA, and my last few post were definitely based on emotion rather than having a serious discussion. This isn’t a justification for the actions just an explanation of the flaws I have that led to them. I fell prey to the wizard’s third rule... passion rules reason.
        tomhoward 7y ago
        Cheers for the comment, and good on you for the self-reflection. I sympathise with the propensity to get angry over all the things that seem wrong in the world. Is't something I've been working to contain in myself for a long time.
wtdata 7y ago
It is weird then, that the all world wants (and feels entitled) to come through our borders and live under our western rules instead the other way around.
ijiiijji1 7y ago
There are different cultures with slightly different modalities, but decency is universal. Murder for cannibalism is unacceptable always. Kafkaesque totalitarianism is unacceptable. Shouting-down opponent speakers is unacceptable. Child rape isn't acceptable because it's "their culture."
- thethirdone 7y ago
  > Murder for cannibalism is unacceptable always. Kafkaesque totalitarianism is unacceptable. Shouting-down opponent speakers is unacceptable. Child rape isn't acceptable because it's "their culture." I think that almost all cultures would agree that murder and child rape are unacceptable, but "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers" is certainly more controversial. [0] The west values democracy and free exchange of ideas, but even in the west failing to uphold those values is not similar to murder. I am certainly not an expert in Chinese values, but maintaining order and obeying social structure seem to be core values in China. I personally don't think they are worth sacrificing the freedoms the west focuses on, but they are worth trying to keep if you can. Those values would not disallow "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers". [0]: I think wrapping the much less clear cases in between murder and child rape is at worst bad-faith arguing and at best revealing of intense biases.
iamaelephant 7y ago
Are you arguing that it's fine when Westerners do it, therefore it's fine when the Chinese do it? I'd argue it's not fine when either does it.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Oh, no. It's definitely not fine when either does it. And my intent (which appears to not have been expressed well) was primarily to criticize the Chinese for doing it, while also acknowledging the fault of the West in the same behavior.
socrates1998 7y ago
So you think it's okay for Chinese students to abuse and harass the protesters? I don't know what you point is?

hrktb 7y ago

Isn’t it the same issue, and something that needs to be explained and taught to the students coming there to learn?

socrates1998 7y ago
Yes, but if you have known a lot of under grad Chinese students, you will know they often don't learn much of anything.

msie 7y ago

A democracy has to tolerate differences in opinion.

avs733 7y ago
no, it doesn't. Like literally the purpose of a democracy is to establish government by norms and the establishment of those norms as laws. A democracy exists explicilty to bound law making within a set range of socially acceptable public disourse. To expend a strawman, Jeffrey Epstein seems to think sexual acts with human beings this country views as unable to consent - that is a difference in opinion, but he ended up in jail rather than tolerated. Invite NAMBLA to your next city council meeting and see how that goes. We don't have slaves, but the greeks and romans who had closer to a true democracy surely did. The idea of owning or not owning slaves was tolerated, and debated, in their time - it wouldn't be in our modern democracy.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  You seem to fail to grasp the difference between belief and behavior. Believing that what Epstein did is OK is a belief. Doing what Epstein did is an action. That said, tolerance of differing opinions exist on a continuum and no perfectly tolerant society exists.

avs733 7y ago

I'm just going to assume you are referring to the universities not understanding how to basically behave in a western country and move on with my life.