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> The Vietnamese government is actually pretty good in terms of freedoms. Wait, what? They recently kidnapped an ex-party member in germany. It was 2017 or so.

> The Vietnamese government is actually pretty good in terms of freedoms. Wait, what? They recently kidnapped an ex-party member in germany. It was 2017 or so. I can't believe that a country which honors you freedom would do something like this.

whatshisface 7y ago
They are a one-party communist state and so are not nearly as good as America, but on the economic freedom index they are close to Hong Kong. Not the greatest country but better than some others where every industry is national (not just China). https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Vietnam/economic-freedom-5-years https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Vietnam/economic-fr...
- sbuttgereit 7y ago
  The link you sent talked about changes in economic freedom... but barely made it clear what they are talking about or measuring. Nevermnind if a site dedicated to global property purchases is likely to be an authority on economic freedom. That site does however say where they get their data: the Heritage Foundation's Economic Freedom Index. So how does that source characterize Vietnam? "Mostly Unfree", 128 in their ranking of countries. And Hong Kong... "Free", 1 in their rankings... though we'll see how well that holds up over the next few years. So not so close to Hong Kong. Heritage goes on to say... "Background The Socialist Republic of Vietnam remains a Communist dictatorship characterized by repression of dissenting political views and the absence of civil liberties. Economic liberalization began in 1986 with doi moi (renovation) reforms to transition to a more industrial and market-based economy. Vietnam joined the World Trade Organization in 2007 and signed the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership in 2018. Vietnam’s economic growth, based on tourism and manufactured exports, was among the world’s fastest during the decade-long tenure of former Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung. In 2016, Dung was forced out after losing election as General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam. State-managed economic liberalization continues under the leadership of General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong." So while they do say that things are getting better... they aren't exactly calling it Hong Kong just yet. https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
BurningFrog 7y ago
The US assassinates its own citizens without trial occasionally. Don't judge by the anomalies, judge by the everyday life for regular people.
- Alupis 7y ago
  It's a little bit different when the person had taken up arms against the nation, no? Should they get a court hearing? Probably. Is that practical, in some cases, if the person could be apprehended. Otherwise it would just be a pony show with a predetermined outcome, making no difference.
  - thereare5lights 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki Sometimes, they kill citizens and then effectively say shit happens.
    - cc81 7y ago
      The US also assassinates non citizens in other countries without trial that generally would not be accepted if other countries did the same in the US. i.e. China sending a drone and blowing up a US citizens car, killing him and his family, somewhere in the middle of US and just saying that they were terrorists and a threat to China's security; but not not providing any evidence as that is classified.
  - chopin 7y ago
    The right to a fair trial should not depend on whether it is practical.
    - Alupis 7y ago
      The thought was - without the individual at the trial with their own legal counsel - is it a fair trail anyway? If it's a military tribunal that rubber-stamps everything - does that improve the process any? Perhaps it would have been better in the specific case to first revoke the person's citizenship?
runn1ng 7y ago
The freedom here is... weird. There is much more freedom of speech than in China, or compared to other SEA countries (maybe except for Thailand, but that has a military coup every 2 years in average). There is no censorship of foreign media, internet is basically free. You can say whatever you want and nobody cares, people complain about party and officials on Facebook constantly. On the other hand, they keep arresting people for public protests (google “formosa protests vietnam”), for crazy numbers of years (10, 20 years for protesting). And there are rumors censorship of internet is coming - they made a new law just this January that will allow them to censor Facebook or Google unless they host data here and give data about citizens to the government. It is a question how will they proceed; the party is similarly opaque to Chinese party. All in all though, it’s around better than other countries in region on average or China but worse than Europe, US, or even Taiwan You can complain about Party, but once you start actually organizing protests, they will come knocking. But since the economy is growing so crazy, people are generally happy. and of course as a white expat you are put on a pedestal here and a bit untouchable. It’s bad but that’s how it is.
- trickstra 7y ago
  Correction - some websites are blocked - like bbc.co.uk, but I encountered others. But it's easy to circumvent. The freedom in Vietnam is largely based on the fact that the government doesn't have the means to censor and catch all the small fish. So unless you go on a big public protest, you can basically do whatever you want. Officially, the freedoms are very much limited and yes, internet censorship is on the rise.
  - runn1ng 7y ago
    BBC seems blocked only on some providers. I can connect to bbc.co.uk now, but bbc.com is DNS blocked.

whatshisface 7y ago

They are a one-party communist state and so are not nearly as good as America, but on the economic freedom index they are close to Hong Kong. Not the greatest country but better than some others where every industry is national (not just China). https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Vietnam/economic-freedom-5-years https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Vietnam/economic-fr...

sbuttgereit 7y ago
The link you sent talked about changes in economic freedom... but barely made it clear what they are talking about or measuring. Nevermnind if a site dedicated to global property purchases is likely to be an authority on economic freedom. That site does however say where they get their data: the Heritage Foundation's Economic Freedom Index. So how does that source characterize Vietnam? "Mostly Unfree", 128 in their ranking of countries. And Hong Kong... "Free", 1 in their rankings... though we'll see how well that holds up over the next few years. So not so close to Hong Kong. Heritage goes on to say... "Background The Socialist Republic of Vietnam remains a Communist dictatorship characterized by repression of dissenting political views and the absence of civil liberties. Economic liberalization began in 1986 with doi moi (renovation) reforms to transition to a more industrial and market-based economy. Vietnam joined the World Trade Organization in 2007 and signed the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership in 2018. Vietnam’s economic growth, based on tourism and manufactured exports, was among the world’s fastest during the decade-long tenure of former Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung. In 2016, Dung was forced out after losing election as General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam. State-managed economic liberalization continues under the leadership of General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong." So while they do say that things are getting better... they aren't exactly calling it Hong Kong just yet. https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

BurningFrog 7y ago

The US assassinates its own citizens without trial occasionally. Don't judge by the anomalies, judge by the everyday life for regular people.

Alupis 7y ago
It's a little bit different when the person had taken up arms against the nation, no? Should they get a court hearing? Probably. Is that practical, in some cases, if the person could be apprehended. Otherwise it would just be a pony show with a predetermined outcome, making no difference.
- thereare5lights 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki Sometimes, they kill citizens and then effectively say shit happens.
  - cc81 7y ago
    The US also assassinates non citizens in other countries without trial that generally would not be accepted if other countries did the same in the US. i.e. China sending a drone and blowing up a US citizens car, killing him and his family, somewhere in the middle of US and just saying that they were terrorists and a threat to China's security; but not not providing any evidence as that is classified.
- chopin 7y ago
  The right to a fair trial should not depend on whether it is practical.
  - Alupis 7y ago
    The thought was - without the individual at the trial with their own legal counsel - is it a fair trail anyway? If it's a military tribunal that rubber-stamps everything - does that improve the process any? Perhaps it would have been better in the specific case to first revoke the person's citizenship?

runn1ng 7y ago

The freedom here is... weird. There is much more freedom of speech than in China, or compared to other SEA countries (maybe except for Thailand, but that has a military coup every 2 years in average). There is no censorship of foreign media, internet is basically free. You can say whatever you want and nobody cares, people complain about party and officials on Facebook constantly. On the other hand, they keep arresting people for public protests (google “formosa protests vietnam”), for crazy numbers of years (10, 20 years for protesting). And there are rumors censorship of internet is coming - they made a new law just this January that will allow them to censor Facebook or Google unless they host data here and give data about citizens to the government. It is a question how will they proceed; the party is similarly opaque to Chinese party. All in all though, it’s around better than other countries in region on average or China but worse than Europe, US, or even Taiwan You can complain about Party, but once you start actually organizing protests, they will come knocking. But since the economy is growing so crazy, people are generally happy. and of course as a white expat you are put on a pedestal here and a bit untouchable. It’s bad but that’s how it is.

trickstra 7y ago
Correction - some websites are blocked - like bbc.co.uk, but I encountered others. But it's easy to circumvent. The freedom in Vietnam is largely based on the fact that the government doesn't have the means to censor and catch all the small fish. So unless you go on a big public protest, you can basically do whatever you want. Officially, the freedoms are very much limited and yes, internet censorship is on the rise.
- runn1ng 7y ago
  BBC seems blocked only on some providers. I can connect to bbc.co.uk now, but bbc.com is DNS blocked.