6 ms·

Sure. While you're at it, please ban red meat. I eat far too much of it and need to be protected.

by EpicEng 7y ago

ceejayoz 7y ago
If someone starts selling nicotine-laced steaks, I'll be the first to advocate for an FDA crackdown on it.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Nicotine is in the same drug class as caffiene. Want to ban coffee as well?
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Plenty of drugs are in the same class with substantially differing impacts - take heroin vs. morphine vs. fentanyl vs. oxycodone as an example, or ask someone taking antipsychotic psych meds if they're all the same. Or try taking some strychnine because it's an alkaloid like nicotine and caffeine and see how well that works out. Since you picked coffee as an example, most of the studies I've seen indicate probably health benefits from it. Nicotine it's not.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      I guess I shouldn't have used the word "class" as you're not the only person to come back with that. I mean that it's generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA. I think you know that comparing heroin to nicotine is just silly and, as far as I'm aware, there's no data that shows that nicotine is any more or substantially more harmful than caffeine. So back in reality where we're talking about banning e-cigs; why should they be subject to a prescription?
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        "So back in reality" GRAS does not mean what you think it means. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664775/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664775/ > Despite scientific uncertainty regarding the safety of inhaling aerosol and flavorant substances from electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) relative to inhaling smoke from traditional cigarettes, some consumers and vape shop employees suggest that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) “generally recognized as safe” (GRAS) designation of constituents provides clear evidence of overall e-cigarette safety. > Although the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association (FEMA) has clarified that the GRAS program only assesses product safety for ingestion in food, not inhalation, public confusion appears to continue. Nicotine isn't even on the GRAS list at all. Some of the additives (like glycerol) and flavorants are. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fdcc/index.cfm?set=GRASNotices&sort=GRN_No&order=DESC&startrow=1&type=basic&search=nicotine https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fdcc/index.cfm?set=GR...
        EpicEng 7y ago
        >"So back in reality" GRAS does not mean what you think it means. I know exactly what GRAS means. Why do you assume otherwise? I never claimed that vaping is safe; you'd have to be an idiot to make that argument. That doesn't mean you ban it. I could have sworn it was on the list... but either way, it doesn't change the fact that nicotine is, by itself, not significantly harmful. What argument are you trying to make here? It seems like all you want to do is nitpick and completely avoid the subject at hand. Why should nicotine and/or e-cigs be more tightly controlled than coffee, cigarettes, beef, alcohol, etc?
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        You claimed nicotine and caffeine are "in the same drug class", then clarified you meant GRAS, but that makes the statement false, as nicotine isn't GRAS. I "assume otherwise" because trying to bring GRAS into the discussion about vaping at all indicates a lack of understanding of what GRAS applies to. Contrary to your assertions, nicotine isn't "not significantly harmful": https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/vdp/2005/00000002/00000002/art00006 https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/vdp/2005/00000002... > Why should nicotine and/or e-cigs be more tightly controlled than coffee, cigarettes, beef, alcohol, etc? As linked up-thread, e-cigs appear to have slowed or halted the progress of smoking cessation efforts, and are seeing substantial uptick in teens. They're a major public health danger. Coffee does not appear to be harmful, as we previously discussed in this comments thread. Cigarettes should be further restricted alongside e-cigs. Beef isn't addictive. Alcohol abuse is a serious problem, but societal acceptance makes it a difficult to tackle one on a practical level. Whataboutism isn't a great approach to medical issues, either.
  - cardine 7y ago
    Cocaine is also in the same drug class as both nicotine and caffeine. Drug class is irrelevant in this situation.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Not talking about that class "stimulants". See comment below.

Sure. While you're at it, please ban red meat. I eat far too much of it and need to be protected.

ceejayoz 7y ago

If someone starts selling nicotine-laced steaks, I'll be the first to advocate for an FDA crackdown on it.

EpicEng 7y ago
Nicotine is in the same drug class as caffiene. Want to ban coffee as well?
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Plenty of drugs are in the same class with substantially differing impacts - take heroin vs. morphine vs. fentanyl vs. oxycodone as an example, or ask someone taking antipsychotic psych meds if they're all the same. Or try taking some strychnine because it's an alkaloid like nicotine and caffeine and see how well that works out. Since you picked coffee as an example, most of the studies I've seen indicate probably health benefits from it. Nicotine it's not.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    I guess I shouldn't have used the word "class" as you're not the only person to come back with that. I mean that it's generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA. I think you know that comparing heroin to nicotine is just silly and, as far as I'm aware, there's no data that shows that nicotine is any more or substantially more harmful than caffeine. So back in reality where we're talking about banning e-cigs; why should they be subject to a prescription?
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      "So back in reality" GRAS does not mean what you think it means. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664775/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664775/ > Despite scientific uncertainty regarding the safety of inhaling aerosol and flavorant substances from electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) relative to inhaling smoke from traditional cigarettes, some consumers and vape shop employees suggest that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) “generally recognized as safe” (GRAS) designation of constituents provides clear evidence of overall e-cigarette safety. > Although the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association (FEMA) has clarified that the GRAS program only assesses product safety for ingestion in food, not inhalation, public confusion appears to continue. Nicotine isn't even on the GRAS list at all. Some of the additives (like glycerol) and flavorants are. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fdcc/index.cfm?set=GRASNotices&sort=GRN_No&order=DESC&startrow=1&type=basic&search=nicotine https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fdcc/index.cfm?set=GR...
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        >"So back in reality" GRAS does not mean what you think it means. I know exactly what GRAS means. Why do you assume otherwise? I never claimed that vaping is safe; you'd have to be an idiot to make that argument. That doesn't mean you ban it. I could have sworn it was on the list... but either way, it doesn't change the fact that nicotine is, by itself, not significantly harmful. What argument are you trying to make here? It seems like all you want to do is nitpick and completely avoid the subject at hand. Why should nicotine and/or e-cigs be more tightly controlled than coffee, cigarettes, beef, alcohol, etc?
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        You claimed nicotine and caffeine are "in the same drug class", then clarified you meant GRAS, but that makes the statement false, as nicotine isn't GRAS. I "assume otherwise" because trying to bring GRAS into the discussion about vaping at all indicates a lack of understanding of what GRAS applies to. Contrary to your assertions, nicotine isn't "not significantly harmful": https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/vdp/2005/00000002/00000002/art00006 https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/vdp/2005/00000002... > Why should nicotine and/or e-cigs be more tightly controlled than coffee, cigarettes, beef, alcohol, etc? As linked up-thread, e-cigs appear to have slowed or halted the progress of smoking cessation efforts, and are seeing substantial uptick in teens. They're a major public health danger. Coffee does not appear to be harmful, as we previously discussed in this comments thread. Cigarettes should be further restricted alongside e-cigs. Beef isn't addictive. Alcohol abuse is a serious problem, but societal acceptance makes it a difficult to tackle one on a practical level. Whataboutism isn't a great approach to medical issues, either.
- cardine 7y ago
  Cocaine is also in the same drug class as both nicotine and caffeine. Drug class is irrelevant in this situation.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Not talking about that class "stimulants". See comment below.