4 ms·

I want to ask two (genuine) questions. Note that these are not statements or attempting to imply something, they are just questions and I am looking for answer

I want to ask two (genuine) questions. Note that these are not statements or attempting to imply something, they are just questions and I am looking for answers, not critiques of my questions (it is silly that I even have to state this, but I do). 1) What percentage of women in each stage of the pipeline want to become full professors? 2) What is the expected level of sexism at the university? I have always seen universities tending towards very liberal, progressive views (generally speaking), both in the student body and the staff, but that is just my observation.

WilTimSon 7y ago
For your second question: sadly, liberal and progressive views do little to combat innate biases. Every single person on the planet has some biases that they might fail to recognize and there've been some recent studies that showed students respect female professors less than their male counterparts and evaluate them lower overall. That's not some systemic hatred toward women, that's just a result of the way society views female educators. For examples, look at these studies: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science-and-politics/article/gender-bias-in-student-evaluations/1224BE475C0AE75A2C2D8553210C4E27 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209749 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- gavanwoolery 7y ago
  I think this is generally true (the distinction between innate and conscious bias). Still, I am curious what kind of experiment might be able to reveal such innate biases (perhaps if an applicant worked remotely and their name and sex were hidden, but that is not easy to setup in many circumstances).
qntty 7y ago
It's almost impossible to give a meaningful answer to the first question. Asking people doesn't really answer the question because the meaningful version of the question is a nuanced counterfactual that would never really be asked in surveys. Lots of people would want to be professors under the right circumstances. If you make a career path that's needlessly precarious and and the only people who "want" to risk trying to have that kind of career are privileged people, then you could just throw up your hands and say "well I guess no one else wants to be a professor," or you could be honest about what people's motivations are and try to create a more humane system.
- gavanwoolery 7y ago
  I think you are correct, it is a nuanced question. But perhaps some insight into statistics around factors that push females towards or away from professorship might be useful.
SantalBlush 7y ago
Speaking to your second point, the faculty's political leanings depend a lot on the department, and even then you can be surprised at the varied political views within a single department. Some of my profs in my dept. seemed very liberal, but that doesn't mean they won't sexually harrass people. I've overheard my old profs talk about women's breasts in their offices across from mine (this was a former job). And there are some profs who will straight up leer at their students. It only takes one or two like this to cause a lot of tension in a workplace.
- gavanwoolery 7y ago
  As with most positions of power, I am certain there is some abuse, although in some cases it can also be mutual attraction (probably more rare). I recall in my college that students "frequently hooked up" with their TAs, (whether or not this was a myth, I do not know).
  - SantalBlush 7y ago
    That is correct; some romantic relationships exist in a workplace. A lot of married professors even work at the same university.
mrweasel 7y ago
We're also missing: What percentage of women are accepted for a open professor position? It doesn't make sense to look at the number of male vs. female professors currently employed. These are positions where people stay for decades, and we've only truly been focused on the issue for the past 10 to 15 years. Hidden deep in some statistics from the Danish ministry of education the numbers show that women are now more likely (edit: I was wrong about this part, it is just as likely, not more) to get hired as professors that men. It will take years to hit 50% male and 50% female professors, but the alternative is to fire existing professors, solely become they're men, or create new jobs, marked for women only, even if you technically don't need more professors. Edit: For those who can read it: https://ufm.dk/publikationer/2019/filer/maend-og-kvinder-pa-de-danske-universiteter-danmarks-talentbarometer-2018.pdf https://ufm.dk/publikationer/2019/filer/maend-og-kvinder-pa-... The main point is that a woman is just as likely to be hired for an open position as man is. The interesting part is that women only make up 30% of the qualified applicants. So a women applying for a university job has a better chance of getting hired, compared to her male rivals. Page 73.
UncleMeat 7y ago
> What is the expected level of sexism at the university? It remains high. A friend of mine has been told by a potential adviser that he does not accept female students. My wife has consistently been asked whether I will give her permission to work as a postdoc at schools she is applying to (it might harm my career, the horror!). I know several women who have hid pregnancies while on the job market and many women who have hid their marital status when applying for faculty positions. Word gets around quickly when people start asking weird questions about "will you be able to handle the work" when making assumptions about having children. My wife and several other friends have had uncomfortable comments (both positive and negative) written about their physical appearance in student evaluations on their teaching. This is just off the top of my head.

WilTimSon 7y ago

For your second question: sadly, liberal and progressive views do little to combat innate biases. Every single person on the planet has some biases that they might fail to recognize and there've been some recent studies that showed students respect female professors less than their male counterparts and evaluate them lower overall. That's not some systemic hatred toward women, that's just a result of the way society views female educators. For examples, look at these studies: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science-and-politics/article/gender-bias-in-student-evaluations/1224BE475C0AE75A2C2D8553210C4E27 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209749 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

gavanwoolery 7y ago
I think this is generally true (the distinction between innate and conscious bias). Still, I am curious what kind of experiment might be able to reveal such innate biases (perhaps if an applicant worked remotely and their name and sex were hidden, but that is not easy to setup in many circumstances).

qntty 7y ago

It's almost impossible to give a meaningful answer to the first question. Asking people doesn't really answer the question because the meaningful version of the question is a nuanced counterfactual that would never really be asked in surveys. Lots of people would want to be professors under the right circumstances. If you make a career path that's needlessly precarious and and the only people who "want" to risk trying to have that kind of career are privileged people, then you could just throw up your hands and say "well I guess no one else wants to be a professor," or you could be honest about what people's motivations are and try to create a more humane system.

gavanwoolery 7y ago
I think you are correct, it is a nuanced question. But perhaps some insight into statistics around factors that push females towards or away from professorship might be useful.

SantalBlush 7y ago

Speaking to your second point, the faculty's political leanings depend a lot on the department, and even then you can be surprised at the varied political views within a single department. Some of my profs in my dept. seemed very liberal, but that doesn't mean they won't sexually harrass people. I've overheard my old profs talk about women's breasts in their offices across from mine (this was a former job). And there are some profs who will straight up leer at their students. It only takes one or two like this to cause a lot of tension in a workplace.

gavanwoolery 7y ago
As with most positions of power, I am certain there is some abuse, although in some cases it can also be mutual attraction (probably more rare). I recall in my college that students "frequently hooked up" with their TAs, (whether or not this was a myth, I do not know).
- SantalBlush 7y ago
  That is correct; some romantic relationships exist in a workplace. A lot of married professors even work at the same university.

mrweasel 7y ago

We're also missing: What percentage of women are accepted for a open professor position? It doesn't make sense to look at the number of male vs. female professors currently employed. These are positions where people stay for decades, and we've only truly been focused on the issue for the past 10 to 15 years. Hidden deep in some statistics from the Danish ministry of education the numbers show that women are now more likely (edit: I was wrong about this part, it is just as likely, not more) to get hired as professors that men. It will take years to hit 50% male and 50% female professors, but the alternative is to fire existing professors, solely become they're men, or create new jobs, marked for women only, even if you technically don't need more professors. Edit: For those who can read it: https://ufm.dk/publikationer/2019/filer/maend-og-kvinder-pa-de-danske-universiteter-danmarks-talentbarometer-2018.pdf https://ufm.dk/publikationer/2019/filer/maend-og-kvinder-pa-... The main point is that a woman is just as likely to be hired for an open position as man is. The interesting part is that women only make up 30% of the qualified applicants. So a women applying for a university job has a better chance of getting hired, compared to her male rivals. Page 73.

UncleMeat 7y ago

> What is the expected level of sexism at the university? It remains high. A friend of mine has been told by a potential adviser that he does not accept female students. My wife has consistently been asked whether I will give her permission to work as a postdoc at schools she is applying to (it might harm my career, the horror!). I know several women who have hid pregnancies while on the job market and many women who have hid their marital status when applying for faculty positions. Word gets around quickly when people start asking weird questions about "will you be able to handle the work" when making assumptions about having children. My wife and several other friends have had uncomfortable comments (both positive and negative) written about their physical appearance in student evaluations on their teaching. This is just off the top of my head.