5 ms·

Can you please provide credible (i.e. peer-reviewed) references to the symptoms you describe being a known side-effect of MMR vaccination? And to doctors being

Can you please provide credible (i.e. peer-reviewed) references to the symptoms you describe being a known side-effect of MMR vaccination? And to doctors being "encouraged" not to admit said side-effects? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual. Which brings me to my next point: any decision has consequences. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance of a side-effect, and a 1 in 5000 chance of getting a debilitating disease, I think it's still fair to make the argument that the treatment is not just for society but also for the patient. Who is "society" if not "all the patients?"

kragen 16y ago
> Who is "society" if not "all the patients?" In your hypothetical case, the treatment is beneficial both for society and for the patient. On the other hand, if there is a 1 in 100 chance of a side effect versus a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a debilitating disease, the vaccination may not be good for the patient. But if the chance of getting the debilitating disease would be 1 in 10 without herd immunity, then the vaccination is good for society. It's just that most of the benefits of the vaccination flow not to the patient but to the other people they don't infect, and transitively.
- huxley 16y ago
  Just to adjust your calculations a bit since side effects aren't all equal, the ranges are likely much higher than you mentioned. Trivial side effects (small temporary rash) are probably in the 1-in-100 range. Moderate non-life-threatening are probably in the 1-in-3000 range. Dangerous or life-threatening side effects are in the one in a million+ range.
  - kragen 16y ago
    This varies a lot by vaccine. The typhoid-fever vaccine I took in 2003 has "trivial side effects" in the 90-in-100 range, I think --- namely, you feel sick for a few days.
    - huxley 16y ago
      You're absolutely right, I should have been more specific by saying that in the case of the MMR vaccine, trivial side effects are in that lower range, but --as you've pointed out-- that isn't true in all vaccines.
SeanDav 16y ago
Sure the "peer" review you require is on the long list of side-effects on one of the MMR manufacturer's own packaging. Look it up. The doctors being encouraged comes from the mouth of a doctor friend of ours that used to work for the NHS. Sorry you are just going to have to take my word on this. I can't prove this. Disagree with you on individual verse society point, but this is a discussion for another day.
- phren0logy 16y ago
  I will continue to search, but I also want to point out a common misperception: adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality. Common medications often have dozens to hundreds. Clearly, some of these are valid, but with more rare events it becomes harder to say. This kind of data is important, but should be viewed in context. Some of what you describes sounds a bit like Guillain-Barré Syndrome, but there are some more idiosyncratic elements. Either way, I hope your daughter is safe and feeling better. My point here is not to be argumentative, but I really do feel that as a physician I have a duty to point out that the overwhelming majority of available data suggests that routine vaccines for common childhood illnesses (those recommended by the CDC and NSH) are safe and effective. Clearly, sometimes people have adverse side-effects, but the data support that the risk of a bad outcome is worse without the vaccine than with. Either decision has consequences.
- steveplace 16y ago
  The side-effects shown on a package of Bayer aspirin are pretty scary, too.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
zzzeek 16y ago
> I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual. How do you know it's unusual if the symptoms in question haven't been studied ? If there's no study, all you have is anecdotal evidence. It could be happening all the time, perhaps to a lesser degree. edit: dear mr. downmodder. I appreciate your response ! I understand the rationale of doctors who shrug off what their patients tell them much better now, thanks, and I now have a deeper respect for their wisdom when they tell me my symptoms are all in my head or something similar.
patrickgzill 16y ago
Perhaps 10 seconds of using your favorite search engine would have found you this link: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm The approximate odds of having a specific reaction, are listed. Seizure (jerking or staring) are listed as 1 in 3000 .

kragen 16y ago

> Who is "society" if not "all the patients?" In your hypothetical case, the treatment is beneficial both for society and for the patient. On the other hand, if there is a 1 in 100 chance of a side effect versus a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a debilitating disease, the vaccination may not be good for the patient. But if the chance of getting the debilitating disease would be 1 in 10 without herd immunity, then the vaccination is good for society. It's just that most of the benefits of the vaccination flow not to the patient but to the other people they don't infect, and transitively.

huxley 16y ago
Just to adjust your calculations a bit since side effects aren't all equal, the ranges are likely much higher than you mentioned. Trivial side effects (small temporary rash) are probably in the 1-in-100 range. Moderate non-life-threatening are probably in the 1-in-3000 range. Dangerous or life-threatening side effects are in the one in a million+ range.
- kragen 16y ago
  This varies a lot by vaccine. The typhoid-fever vaccine I took in 2003 has "trivial side effects" in the 90-in-100 range, I think --- namely, you feel sick for a few days.
  - huxley 16y ago
    You're absolutely right, I should have been more specific by saying that in the case of the MMR vaccine, trivial side effects are in that lower range, but --as you've pointed out-- that isn't true in all vaccines.

SeanDav 16y ago

Sure the "peer" review you require is on the long list of side-effects on one of the MMR manufacturer's own packaging. Look it up. The doctors being encouraged comes from the mouth of a doctor friend of ours that used to work for the NHS. Sorry you are just going to have to take my word on this. I can't prove this. Disagree with you on individual verse society point, but this is a discussion for another day.

phren0logy 16y ago
I will continue to search, but I also want to point out a common misperception: adverse events in the PDR or on product packaging are simply a list of all reported adverse events, with little data to demonstrate causality. Common medications often have dozens to hundreds. Clearly, some of these are valid, but with more rare events it becomes harder to say. This kind of data is important, but should be viewed in context. Some of what you describes sounds a bit like Guillain-Barré Syndrome, but there are some more idiosyncratic elements. Either way, I hope your daughter is safe and feeling better. My point here is not to be argumentative, but I really do feel that as a physician I have a duty to point out that the overwhelming majority of available data suggests that routine vaccines for common childhood illnesses (those recommended by the CDC and NSH) are safe and effective. Clearly, sometimes people have adverse side-effects, but the data support that the risk of a bad outcome is worse without the vaccine than with. Either decision has consequences.
steveplace 16y ago
The side-effects shown on a package of Bayer aspirin are pretty scary, too.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

zzzeek 16y ago

> I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying what you are describing is really unusual. How do you know it's unusual if the symptoms in question haven't been studied ? If there's no study, all you have is anecdotal evidence. It could be happening all the time, perhaps to a lesser degree. edit: dear mr. downmodder. I appreciate your response ! I understand the rationale of doctors who shrug off what their patients tell them much better now, thanks, and I now have a deeper respect for their wisdom when they tell me my symptoms are all in my head or something similar.

patrickgzill 16y ago

Perhaps 10 seconds of using your favorite search engine would have found you this link: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm The approximate odds of having a specific reaction, are listed. Seizure (jerking or staring) are listed as 1 in 3000 .