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> Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. I think being frie

> Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. I think being friends with a convicted child sex trafficker should be cause for disgrace. That's something most normal people would not do.

coldtea 7y ago
Well, if those "normal people" are christians, their religion tells them not to look down on nobody, and that the worst sinner is still a human being (not that most christians aren't actually mere Old Testament types). There's an equivalent version of the same sentiment that atheists can share too. Participating in their activities, or not stopping them when they see them, is another thing, of course. I wouldn't hold it to somebody if they befriended an ex-murderer for example, knowing e.g. they killed people in the past.
- msghacq 7y ago
  I don't think it takes religion to see this as a bad thing. Just simple empathy and common sense. Even with zero empathy for the victims, its seems like terrible business sense to associate with a child sex trafficker. People in general care about their reputations.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Sure, reputation I can understand. Or precaution. Or repulsion. Those are common and understandable first-level responses. But that doesn't mean people should negatively judge anybody who doesn't respond like that, and e.g. remains, or becomes, friend with somebody who did wrong (even extreme wrong). They could stay away from them (the friends) too, but why judge them for the mere fact of being friends? I mean, they could just them negatively in thinking that they are complicit -- but shouldn't just them negatively merely for being friends.
    - shaggerty 7y ago
      I find your apologetics for those who associate with known pedophiles deeply disturbing. Pedophiles require a network of enablers to operate, much more so for high-profile cases like Epstein. If someone you know chooses to associate with a known pedophile, you should cut all ties with them. If you don’t, then you are potentially complicit in the crime insofar as you could potentially provide assistance to someone who is enabling a known pedophile. This is why anyone with a functioning moral system will negatively judge associates of known pedophiles. I’m not sure why this needs to be spelled out for you.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        You could say the same thing as neutral arguments, without the posturing and the personal insults. Ever occurred to you? That's a jerk move. I’m not sure why this needs to be spelled out for you.... Did you even read my comments in these discussions (not just this subthread), and do they look like defending to Epstein and friends as to their innocence to you? My point is an ages old point (and part of basic christian morals): love to the neighbor doesn't stop when one has been (or even is) a sinner, even if they're the worst sinner. In fact that's where it makes more sense. That's not about befriending a criminal to participate or benefit from their crimes (which I made abundantly clear and even spelled out). It's also not about befriending a criminal and keeping quiet about criminal stuff you see (thus enabling) their crimes. It's that if you're a friend, you're a friend. Friendship and love for a criminal isn't complicity and shouldn't be judged as such. In fact it could be the best thing that helps to make a criminal see their ways. Doubly so for an ex-criminal.
        shaggerty 7y ago
        I never accused you of defending Epstein, I was responding to the second paragraph of your comment. You seemed to be arguing there that we shouldn’t make negative judgments of those who choose to be friends with others who have committed “extreme wrong” which I assume includes crimes like those committed by Epstein. That is specifically what I take issue with, and I stand by my assertion that any defense of that position in the context of pedophila constitutes pedophilic apologetics. The mandate to “love thy neighbor as yourself” does not require Christians to refrain from making negative moral judgements of others based on who they choose to associate with.
- SamBam 7y ago
  A christian loves a repentant sinner. You should be lauded for befriending a repentant murderer who has served his time and is trying to come back into society. You should be shamed for befriending an unrepentant murderer who avoided punishment through his wealth and connections and may still be murdering today.

coldtea 7y ago

Well, if those "normal people" are christians, their religion tells them not to look down on nobody, and that the worst sinner is still a human being (not that most christians aren't actually mere Old Testament types). There's an equivalent version of the same sentiment that atheists can share too. Participating in their activities, or not stopping them when they see them, is another thing, of course. I wouldn't hold it to somebody if they befriended an ex-murderer for example, knowing e.g. they killed people in the past.

msghacq 7y ago
I don't think it takes religion to see this as a bad thing. Just simple empathy and common sense. Even with zero empathy for the victims, its seems like terrible business sense to associate with a child sex trafficker. People in general care about their reputations.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Sure, reputation I can understand. Or precaution. Or repulsion. Those are common and understandable first-level responses. But that doesn't mean people should negatively judge anybody who doesn't respond like that, and e.g. remains, or becomes, friend with somebody who did wrong (even extreme wrong). They could stay away from them (the friends) too, but why judge them for the mere fact of being friends? I mean, they could just them negatively in thinking that they are complicit -- but shouldn't just them negatively merely for being friends.
  - shaggerty 7y ago
    I find your apologetics for those who associate with known pedophiles deeply disturbing. Pedophiles require a network of enablers to operate, much more so for high-profile cases like Epstein. If someone you know chooses to associate with a known pedophile, you should cut all ties with them. If you don’t, then you are potentially complicit in the crime insofar as you could potentially provide assistance to someone who is enabling a known pedophile. This is why anyone with a functioning moral system will negatively judge associates of known pedophiles. I’m not sure why this needs to be spelled out for you.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      You could say the same thing as neutral arguments, without the posturing and the personal insults. Ever occurred to you? That's a jerk move. I’m not sure why this needs to be spelled out for you.... Did you even read my comments in these discussions (not just this subthread), and do they look like defending to Epstein and friends as to their innocence to you? My point is an ages old point (and part of basic christian morals): love to the neighbor doesn't stop when one has been (or even is) a sinner, even if they're the worst sinner. In fact that's where it makes more sense. That's not about befriending a criminal to participate or benefit from their crimes (which I made abundantly clear and even spelled out). It's also not about befriending a criminal and keeping quiet about criminal stuff you see (thus enabling) their crimes. It's that if you're a friend, you're a friend. Friendship and love for a criminal isn't complicity and shouldn't be judged as such. In fact it could be the best thing that helps to make a criminal see their ways. Doubly so for an ex-criminal.
      - shaggerty 7y ago
        I never accused you of defending Epstein, I was responding to the second paragraph of your comment. You seemed to be arguing there that we shouldn’t make negative judgments of those who choose to be friends with others who have committed “extreme wrong” which I assume includes crimes like those committed by Epstein. That is specifically what I take issue with, and I stand by my assertion that any defense of that position in the context of pedophila constitutes pedophilic apologetics. The mandate to “love thy neighbor as yourself” does not require Christians to refrain from making negative moral judgements of others based on who they choose to associate with.
SamBam 7y ago
A christian loves a repentant sinner. You should be lauded for befriending a repentant murderer who has served his time and is trying to come back into society. You should be shamed for befriending an unrepentant murderer who avoided punishment through his wealth and connections and may still be murdering today.