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I will probably be tarred and feathered for this comment as well but: I think this whole thing has turned into a witch hunt / mob assault on anyone who has had

I will probably be tarred and feathered for this comment as well but: I think this whole thing has turned into a witch hunt / mob assault on anyone who has had any ties to Epstein. The attitude of many of the comments seem to essentially suggest that if one has been at the same party as epstein sometime in the past, such person must be a child molester. Now people are falling over themselves trying to one up each other on who can display the most moral outrage. It is an example of how public discourse has degenerated to the point where we are attacking people first and refusing to ask even some basic questions before branding someone as guilty by association. (edited out "come on it is ridiculous" as it seemed unnecessarily inflammatory)

msghacq 7y ago
Joi Ito wasn't at "some party" with Epstein. He raised money from him after Epstein was convicted for child sex trafficking. He also allowed Epstein to co-invest in his startups. He also visited his houses... During this time period Epstein continued to rape children (two new suits were just filed on Tuesday that state this). Joi Ito has a deep relationship with a child sex trafficker, people are rightfully upset.
- dev_dull 7y ago
  Not only that, but the accusations against Epstein wasn’t just that he’s a pedophile, but he was perhaps running blackmail on people using that disgusting entrapment scheme. We’ll see how much of that turns out to be true in the end. The DOJ has been very tight lipped on all of it. For the time being I’m being VERY cautious about any powerful people who associated with him regularly (or ever visited his island).
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    I don’t believe Epstein was blackmailing anyone. I think his associates were more than happy to give him whatever he wanted in exchange for the depravities he organised for them. That’s why they’re always smiling and happy in photos with him. They don’t look like blackmail victims. And even if they were... you cannot blackmail someone unless they’ve done something! It was the same with Weinstein.
- paggle 7y ago
  Not just a child sex trafficker, but the most infamous criminal since Osama Bin Laden
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> this whole thing has turned into a witch hunt Ito accepted donations and investments from Epstein with full knowledge of his past crimes. These donations are two-way streets. The recipient gets funds. But the donor gets prestige. This is a closer, more knowledgeable and more mutually-beneficial relationship than you're acknowledging.
wastedhours 7y ago
Odd take - almost all of the stories are about people who ended up engaging extensively with him after he'd already been convicted of being a sex offender. Sure, you can associate with whomever you want to, but the media highlighting the fact that notable people continued to not only be friendly with, but often appear to be in the pocket of financially, someone rather heinous is not really a "witch hunt". (Especially considering many of the allegations are of using this financial power as a pawn in a larger blackmail operation means those financial ties do have to be investigated)
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  I have befriended and helped (provided housing and other support) convicted felons who have done their time. Where do you draw the line? Edit: I agree with those who have replied, and appreciate that my question was answered with genuine effort.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    Did Epstein finish doing his time before these people were willing to recieve investment money from him?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      No, but that’s sort of my point. Ambiguity and fear shouldn’t be used to dissuade helping those who did do their time, so it’s important to point out exceptions and why they are exceptions (Epstein was unable to be reformed IMHO, which is both tragic and a cautionary tale). It’s hard to discern the reformed from the monsters sometimes, but the reformed still deserve another chance.
      - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        Your point was that you assisted people after they did their time. Epstein did not do his time. He did not go through any reformation process. People were willing to take his money and his professional connections even knowing his recent conviction for which his time was upcoming. This isn't a case where someone is reformed and people aren't forgiving them. Epstein was not reformed, did not serve his time, and people were still actively engaging with him. Those people were not engaging with a reformed man. They were engaging with a predator. I entirely agree with you that reformed felons deserve a chance after they serve their time. Epstein was not reformed and he did not serve time, therefore what chance did he deserve on account of these people?
coldtea 7y ago
>The attitude of many of the comments seem to essentially suggest that if one has been at the same party as epstein sometime in the past, you must be a child molester. Come on, its ridiculous. Well, "at the same party" might not be that ridiculous. Depends on the party and its goal. Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. >It is yet another example of how public discourse has degenerated to the point where we are attacking people first and refusing to ask even some basic questions before branding someone as guilty by association. I think the reason for the public displays of disgrace is to tell us how "good souls" they are, more so than any real concern for the victims. Most people could not care less and will forget the whole thing in a heartbeat, but they still like to participate to the collective hate ceremony - and even better when the person to hate was really an abuser!
- msghacq 7y ago
  > Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. I think being friends with a convicted child sex trafficker should be cause for disgrace. That's something most normal people would not do.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Well, if those "normal people" are christians, their religion tells them not to look down on nobody, and that the worst sinner is still a human being (not that most christians aren't actually mere Old Testament types). There's an equivalent version of the same sentiment that atheists can share too. Participating in their activities, or not stopping them when they see them, is another thing, of course. I wouldn't hold it to somebody if they befriended an ex-murderer for example, knowing e.g. they killed people in the past.
    - msghacq 7y ago
      I don't think it takes religion to see this as a bad thing. Just simple empathy and common sense. Even with zero empathy for the victims, its seems like terrible business sense to associate with a child sex trafficker. People in general care about their reputations.
Barrin92 7y ago
Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting an underaged prostitute in 2008. Anyone who accepted his money or spent time in his proximity or benefited in some other way from his money or connections has in my opinion blatantly violated ethical standards. It is sad to see that people like Pinker and some other public intellectuals seemed to have no issue with staying close to his circle years later.
- hwillis 7y ago
  > Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting an underaged prostitute in 2008. And the investigation stemmed from a mother bringing her daughter to the police station after she had been at Epstein's mansion. And the evidence included over 50 underaged girls, before the prosecution dropped it to two counts and then one count of assault... and NOT for lack of evidence. The girls' high school report cards were found in his house. The man was a pedophile and a predator. The fact that anyone was willing to associate with him in any capacity after 2008 is just insane. In 2009 the flight logs were leaked and the smart people in that list cut contact. Anyone who continued to associate with Epstein after that did so in the fact of public castigation almost a decade ago. Fuck, Trump was talking about him "liking girls on the younger side" in 2002- no sane person should have anything to do with Epstein any time recently.
pron 7y ago
I see no witch hunt here, nor any accusation of anyone in the lab of being a child molester. You call this an example of the degeneration of public discourse, yet it contains none of the qualities you find "ridiculous."
strangeloops85 7y ago
As others pointed out, this goes beyond mere association. It involves being present at his houses (and private island) where multiple underage victims of sex trafficking may have been present. Some of them had extensive and repeated contacts with him, and a few (so far) have been named (though of course this is as yet unproven) in private lawsuits as having participated in sexual assaults. So yeah, given the scale of the potential crimes involved, some scrutiny is well deserved. It’s also depressing how all these prominent men (and yes, it’s all men because Epstein didn’t like having women around for their intellects, and because they may have figured out something was amiss) never questioned any of this, because Epstein was rich.
- msghacq 7y ago
  Good points but it's not true that Epstein didn't have women involved. His #2 was Ghislaine Maxwell, she recruited girls and participated in the abuse. He also had Heidi Klum, Naomi Campbell, Barbra Walters and numerous other high profile women in his orbit, on his planes and at his houses.
IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
Why did they have ties to Epstein? If they never severed those connections even after all the information about him surfaced and even up to the point of his death, should they not be called out for it? Marvin Minsky was literally called out by one of the victims as someone partaking in pederasty with Epstein's sex trafficking victims. Is Epstein someone YOU would want to associate with, and if so, why?
- wl 7y ago
  The Minsky accusation and others like it are questionable. There's precisely one accuser, Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who claims Epstein was procuring underaged girls for other men in his orbit, like Marvin Minsky, Bill Clinton, Bill Richardson, Alan Dershowitz, and Prince Andrew. There's another accuser who came forth during the 2016 election alleging Epstein gave her to Trump. Everyone else alleges that they were abused by Epstein and/or Ghislaine Maxwell. Giuffre's story goes far beyond what anyone else alleged. If it's true, why do none of the other numerous victims have similar stories? Dershowitz has claimed Giuffre is extorting people.
  - msghacq 7y ago
    There are pictures with Prince Andrew's arm around 16 year old Giuffre with Maxwell present. How many 16 year olds find themselves in that situation? The Lolita Express (Epstein's plane) had a bed installed in it. That's not normal. Flight logs put Giuffre on the plane with everyone she's accused. Epstein used Alan Dershowitz (also accused of molesting children with Epstein) to bury all of this information and killed himself when it came to light. The accusations are not questionable at all.
    - paggle 7y ago
      I agree with most of your comment except that installing a bed in a private jet is pretty normal.
DanielleMolloy 7y ago
Epstein sitting in the backseats of his conferences with a minor in each arm should cause raise eyebrows with every halfway decent human being. Some explanations are necessary now, even if the explanation is that they desperately needed the money. Until then I will feel free to assume that involved scientific celebrities like Minsky padded Epsteins shoulders for his great taste in teenage women, or even took advantage of this other interest.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
The issue is that Epstein used these connections to the rich, powerful, and influential to further his rape of children, and when he was investigated to get off with a very, very light sentence. Thus people who accepted his money and palled around with him provided cover for him. When people are offering money, the temptation is to not dig deeply and look away. Hopefully, this treatment of Epstein’s associates will serve as a lesson to people to not totaled gifts blindly and enable predators.
pnathan 7y ago
well, it's one thing if you did so unknowingly. but if you have a close and long running relationship with a proven creep (of different flavors), your moral compass becomes suspect, and after it becomes public knowledge, it becomes a question of whether your association indicates approval of the bad behavior. it's not always clearcut in private figures, but when the creep(of different flavors) is a nationally known figure, I think the onus is relatively clear... hold the person at some arms length.

msghacq 7y ago

Joi Ito wasn't at "some party" with Epstein. He raised money from him after Epstein was convicted for child sex trafficking. He also allowed Epstein to co-invest in his startups. He also visited his houses... During this time period Epstein continued to rape children (two new suits were just filed on Tuesday that state this). Joi Ito has a deep relationship with a child sex trafficker, people are rightfully upset.

dev_dull 7y ago
Not only that, but the accusations against Epstein wasn’t just that he’s a pedophile, but he was perhaps running blackmail on people using that disgusting entrapment scheme. We’ll see how much of that turns out to be true in the end. The DOJ has been very tight lipped on all of it. For the time being I’m being VERY cautious about any powerful people who associated with him regularly (or ever visited his island).
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  I don’t believe Epstein was blackmailing anyone. I think his associates were more than happy to give him whatever he wanted in exchange for the depravities he organised for them. That’s why they’re always smiling and happy in photos with him. They don’t look like blackmail victims. And even if they were... you cannot blackmail someone unless they’ve done something! It was the same with Weinstein.
paggle 7y ago
Not just a child sex trafficker, but the most infamous criminal since Osama Bin Laden

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> this whole thing has turned into a witch hunt Ito accepted donations and investments from Epstein with full knowledge of his past crimes. These donations are two-way streets. The recipient gets funds. But the donor gets prestige. This is a closer, more knowledgeable and more mutually-beneficial relationship than you're acknowledging.

wastedhours 7y ago

Odd take - almost all of the stories are about people who ended up engaging extensively with him after he'd already been convicted of being a sex offender. Sure, you can associate with whomever you want to, but the media highlighting the fact that notable people continued to not only be friendly with, but often appear to be in the pocket of financially, someone rather heinous is not really a "witch hunt". (Especially considering many of the allegations are of using this financial power as a pawn in a larger blackmail operation means those financial ties do have to be investigated)

toomuchtodo 7y ago
I have befriended and helped (provided housing and other support) convicted felons who have done their time. Where do you draw the line? Edit: I agree with those who have replied, and appreciate that my question was answered with genuine effort.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  Did Epstein finish doing his time before these people were willing to recieve investment money from him?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    No, but that’s sort of my point. Ambiguity and fear shouldn’t be used to dissuade helping those who did do their time, so it’s important to point out exceptions and why they are exceptions (Epstein was unable to be reformed IMHO, which is both tragic and a cautionary tale). It’s hard to discern the reformed from the monsters sometimes, but the reformed still deserve another chance.
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      Your point was that you assisted people after they did their time. Epstein did not do his time. He did not go through any reformation process. People were willing to take his money and his professional connections even knowing his recent conviction for which his time was upcoming. This isn't a case where someone is reformed and people aren't forgiving them. Epstein was not reformed, did not serve his time, and people were still actively engaging with him. Those people were not engaging with a reformed man. They were engaging with a predator. I entirely agree with you that reformed felons deserve a chance after they serve their time. Epstein was not reformed and he did not serve time, therefore what chance did he deserve on account of these people?

coldtea 7y ago

>The attitude of many of the comments seem to essentially suggest that if one has been at the same party as epstein sometime in the past, you must be a child molester. Come on, its ridiculous. Well, "at the same party" might not be that ridiculous. Depends on the party and its goal. Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. >It is yet another example of how public discourse has degenerated to the point where we are attacking people first and refusing to ask even some basic questions before branding someone as guilty by association. I think the reason for the public displays of disgrace is to tell us how "good souls" they are, more so than any real concern for the victims. Most people could not care less and will forget the whole thing in a heartbeat, but they still like to participate to the collective hate ceremony - and even better when the person to hate was really an abuser!

msghacq 7y ago
> Merely knowing/being friends with the guy though should not be reason for disgrace without further evidence of anything bad on one's part. I think being friends with a convicted child sex trafficker should be cause for disgrace. That's something most normal people would not do.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Well, if those "normal people" are christians, their religion tells them not to look down on nobody, and that the worst sinner is still a human being (not that most christians aren't actually mere Old Testament types). There's an equivalent version of the same sentiment that atheists can share too. Participating in their activities, or not stopping them when they see them, is another thing, of course. I wouldn't hold it to somebody if they befriended an ex-murderer for example, knowing e.g. they killed people in the past.
  - msghacq 7y ago
    I don't think it takes religion to see this as a bad thing. Just simple empathy and common sense. Even with zero empathy for the victims, its seems like terrible business sense to associate with a child sex trafficker. People in general care about their reputations.

Barrin92 7y ago

Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting an underaged prostitute in 2008. Anyone who accepted his money or spent time in his proximity or benefited in some other way from his money or connections has in my opinion blatantly violated ethical standards. It is sad to see that people like Pinker and some other public intellectuals seemed to have no issue with staying close to his circle years later.

hwillis 7y ago
> Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting an underaged prostitute in 2008. And the investigation stemmed from a mother bringing her daughter to the police station after she had been at Epstein's mansion. And the evidence included over 50 underaged girls, before the prosecution dropped it to two counts and then one count of assault... and NOT for lack of evidence. The girls' high school report cards were found in his house. The man was a pedophile and a predator. The fact that anyone was willing to associate with him in any capacity after 2008 is just insane. In 2009 the flight logs were leaked and the smart people in that list cut contact. Anyone who continued to associate with Epstein after that did so in the fact of public castigation almost a decade ago. Fuck, Trump was talking about him "liking girls on the younger side" in 2002- no sane person should have anything to do with Epstein any time recently.

pron 7y ago

I see no witch hunt here, nor any accusation of anyone in the lab of being a child molester. You call this an example of the degeneration of public discourse, yet it contains none of the qualities you find "ridiculous."

strangeloops85 7y ago

As others pointed out, this goes beyond mere association. It involves being present at his houses (and private island) where multiple underage victims of sex trafficking may have been present. Some of them had extensive and repeated contacts with him, and a few (so far) have been named (though of course this is as yet unproven) in private lawsuits as having participated in sexual assaults. So yeah, given the scale of the potential crimes involved, some scrutiny is well deserved. It’s also depressing how all these prominent men (and yes, it’s all men because Epstein didn’t like having women around for their intellects, and because they may have figured out something was amiss) never questioned any of this, because Epstein was rich.

msghacq 7y ago
Good points but it's not true that Epstein didn't have women involved. His #2 was Ghislaine Maxwell, she recruited girls and participated in the abuse. He also had Heidi Klum, Naomi Campbell, Barbra Walters and numerous other high profile women in his orbit, on his planes and at his houses.

IOT_Apprentice 7y ago

Why did they have ties to Epstein? If they never severed those connections even after all the information about him surfaced and even up to the point of his death, should they not be called out for it? Marvin Minsky was literally called out by one of the victims as someone partaking in pederasty with Epstein's sex trafficking victims. Is Epstein someone YOU would want to associate with, and if so, why?

wl 7y ago
The Minsky accusation and others like it are questionable. There's precisely one accuser, Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who claims Epstein was procuring underaged girls for other men in his orbit, like Marvin Minsky, Bill Clinton, Bill Richardson, Alan Dershowitz, and Prince Andrew. There's another accuser who came forth during the 2016 election alleging Epstein gave her to Trump. Everyone else alleges that they were abused by Epstein and/or Ghislaine Maxwell. Giuffre's story goes far beyond what anyone else alleged. If it's true, why do none of the other numerous victims have similar stories? Dershowitz has claimed Giuffre is extorting people.
- msghacq 7y ago
  There are pictures with Prince Andrew's arm around 16 year old Giuffre with Maxwell present. How many 16 year olds find themselves in that situation? The Lolita Express (Epstein's plane) had a bed installed in it. That's not normal. Flight logs put Giuffre on the plane with everyone she's accused. Epstein used Alan Dershowitz (also accused of molesting children with Epstein) to bury all of this information and killed himself when it came to light. The accusations are not questionable at all.
  - paggle 7y ago
    I agree with most of your comment except that installing a bed in a private jet is pretty normal.

DanielleMolloy 7y ago

Epstein sitting in the backseats of his conferences with a minor in each arm should cause raise eyebrows with every halfway decent human being. Some explanations are necessary now, even if the explanation is that they desperately needed the money. Until then I will feel free to assume that involved scientific celebrities like Minsky padded Epsteins shoulders for his great taste in teenage women, or even took advantage of this other interest.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

The issue is that Epstein used these connections to the rich, powerful, and influential to further his rape of children, and when he was investigated to get off with a very, very light sentence. Thus people who accepted his money and palled around with him provided cover for him. When people are offering money, the temptation is to not dig deeply and look away. Hopefully, this treatment of Epstein’s associates will serve as a lesson to people to not totaled gifts blindly and enable predators.

pnathan 7y ago

well, it's one thing if you did so unknowingly. but if you have a close and long running relationship with a proven creep (of different flavors), your moral compass becomes suspect, and after it becomes public knowledge, it becomes a question of whether your association indicates approval of the bad behavior. it's not always clearcut in private figures, but when the creep(of different flavors) is a nationally known figure, I think the onus is relatively clear... hold the person at some arms length.