5 ms·

Reading as a woman, I agree with you about the cringe however you may not be also picking up the same stereotypes and unreasonable expectations demanded of the

Reading as a woman, I agree with you about the cringe however you may not be also picking up the same stereotypes and unreasonable expectations demanded of the male characters. They are often required to be some kind of impossibly strong, rational, perfect male-figure which is equally impossible as the feminine roles they write about. If the story has other qualities, I can put these issues aside however often I just feel that the entire tale falls apart since I can't believe in the characters and their decisions. Stanislav Lem, along with Asimov discussed here, has excellent women roles. Obviously as does Ursula Le Guin. Some other recommendations here: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/50-sci-fi-must-reads-by-women/ https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/50-sci-fi...

ergothus 7y ago
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll give them a go (Asimov I've been all over, but only a handful of Lem and Le Guin). Excellent points - I grew up with a single mom and often semi-joke that sci-fi/fantasy provided all of my adult role models. There's a disturbing connection between my failed personal expectations of myself and the stereotypes you called out.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  Le Guin is one of the all time greats. If you like fantasy, the wizard of earthsea is a classic. For sci-fi, my introduction to her was the left hand of darkness, which I devoured.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
Yes! Feminism not only means women are allowed to be strong and smart; it also means men are allowed to show their emotions and talk about their feelings.
- nesadi 7y ago
  Yeah, no. If feminism were at all interested in improving the mental health of men, it wouldn't be called feminism. Feminism is only interested in men insofar as the whole gender is considered the source of womens' issues.
  - Freak_NL 7y ago
    Where did you learn about the definition of feminism? Feminism is called feminism because it advocates women's rights in order to bring about equality of the sexes in all aspects of public and private life. The term was coined in the late nineteenth century; before women's suffrage and the gradual abolishment of a whole host of other laws and customs that suppressed (and in some cases still suppress) women — hence the name of the movement.
    - nesadi 7y ago
      > in order to bring about equality of the sexes in all aspects of public and private life. And none of that has anything to do with helping men. It's all about women. Which is fine, women need advocates for all the shit they have to put up with. But pretending that feminism has any interest at all in helping men is utter bullshit and such an atrocious lie and this isn't the place to push that lie. I've never once ever in my life been helped by a feminist. I've been demonized, insulted, discriminated against, but never helped. Because that's not their goal.
    - Shorel 7y ago
      In theory both Feminism and Communism are perfect, by their own definitions. In practice, feminist District Attorneys are attacked by other feminists for defending due process, see here: https://app.getpocket.com/read/2699410657 https://app.getpocket.com/read/2699410657 https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190807-feminist-law-profs https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190807-feminist-law... The point is, yes, in the past there were many injustices against women. No one denies this. These injustices must be corrected. But the solution is not to tilt the balance so that all injustice now goes against men, when any accused is automatically assumed guilty, and losing their jobs, scholarships, everything, before a ruling is made. The solution is to try to avoid any and all injustice, and we are failing at that. Hell, we can't even criticize feminism if we are not women and self-proclaimed feminists.
  - jgalt212 7y ago
    Yes, that's the definition as it certainly "feels" like to many men. And because it's perceived this way, it's mission is hamstrung from the word go.
hanche 7y ago
I was going to recommend Octavia E. Butler, but I see she is already on the list. The whole Xenogenesis trilogy is good, not just Dawn (first in the series). Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents likewise. And Connie Willis' To say nothing of the dog is hilarious! It will brighten anyone's day. I'll just have to starting working through that list, now.
- Shorel 7y ago
  Wild Seed, also by Octavia Butler, is one of the best books I have read this decade. It is probably the best science fiction book I have read in many years.

ergothus 7y ago

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll give them a go (Asimov I've been all over, but only a handful of Lem and Le Guin). Excellent points - I grew up with a single mom and often semi-joke that sci-fi/fantasy provided all of my adult role models. There's a disturbing connection between my failed personal expectations of myself and the stereotypes you called out.

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
Le Guin is one of the all time greats. If you like fantasy, the wizard of earthsea is a classic. For sci-fi, my introduction to her was the left hand of darkness, which I devoured.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

Yes! Feminism not only means women are allowed to be strong and smart; it also means men are allowed to show their emotions and talk about their feelings.

nesadi 7y ago
Yeah, no. If feminism were at all interested in improving the mental health of men, it wouldn't be called feminism. Feminism is only interested in men insofar as the whole gender is considered the source of womens' issues.
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  Where did you learn about the definition of feminism? Feminism is called feminism because it advocates women's rights in order to bring about equality of the sexes in all aspects of public and private life. The term was coined in the late nineteenth century; before women's suffrage and the gradual abolishment of a whole host of other laws and customs that suppressed (and in some cases still suppress) women — hence the name of the movement.
  - nesadi 7y ago
    > in order to bring about equality of the sexes in all aspects of public and private life. And none of that has anything to do with helping men. It's all about women. Which is fine, women need advocates for all the shit they have to put up with. But pretending that feminism has any interest at all in helping men is utter bullshit and such an atrocious lie and this isn't the place to push that lie. I've never once ever in my life been helped by a feminist. I've been demonized, insulted, discriminated against, but never helped. Because that's not their goal.
  - Shorel 7y ago
    In theory both Feminism and Communism are perfect, by their own definitions. In practice, feminist District Attorneys are attacked by other feminists for defending due process, see here: https://app.getpocket.com/read/2699410657 https://app.getpocket.com/read/2699410657 https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190807-feminist-law-profs https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190807-feminist-law... The point is, yes, in the past there were many injustices against women. No one denies this. These injustices must be corrected. But the solution is not to tilt the balance so that all injustice now goes against men, when any accused is automatically assumed guilty, and losing their jobs, scholarships, everything, before a ruling is made. The solution is to try to avoid any and all injustice, and we are failing at that. Hell, we can't even criticize feminism if we are not women and self-proclaimed feminists.
- jgalt212 7y ago
  Yes, that's the definition as it certainly "feels" like to many men. And because it's perceived this way, it's mission is hamstrung from the word go.

hanche 7y ago

I was going to recommend Octavia E. Butler, but I see she is already on the list. The whole Xenogenesis trilogy is good, not just Dawn (first in the series). Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents likewise. And Connie Willis' To say nothing of the dog is hilarious! It will brighten anyone's day. I'll just have to starting working through that list, now.

Shorel 7y ago
Wild Seed, also by Octavia Butler, is one of the best books I have read this decade. It is probably the best science fiction book I have read in many years.