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Whistle-blower reveals N Dakota leak of 11M gallons of gas condensate in 2015

354 points by howard941 7y ago

pnutjam 7y ago
simply awful
ceejayoz 7y ago
This is appalling, but the comparison is a bit disingenuous. It's not crude oil, and it's not in the ocean where it spreads to coat an entire coastline.
- habnds 7y ago
  right, it's in the ground water that people are drinking.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    That does seem likely, and is another reason the comparison isn't great. The nature and impact of the two situations are wildly different in various ways.
- hwillis 7y ago
  It's worse, the specific stuff released here is LNAPL[1], which is basically the light liquid components like alkanes, benzene etc. They all flow right along at the highest point of groundwater. They've been going directly into the groundwater and probably drinking water for over a decade. These things are toxic and carcinogenic; they don't even put benzene in gasoline any more because just being around it for long enough will give you leukemia.
- chabes 7y ago
  Downplaying this so much is a bit disingenuous, I think. It’s already shown to be having a negative impact, without the spill being properly investigated yet. The real problem comes down to the state giving priority to the industry instead of its own people. The ongoing practice of minimal reporting of these incidents, as well as the conspiring to cover it up, should be investigated, and those involved should be held responsible.
mistrial9 7y ago
alt link to referenced paper: http://www.saltedlands.org/images/uploads/news/Vengosh_BrineSpills_UnconventionalOilDevelopment_NorthDakota.pdf http://www.saltedlands.org/images/uploads/news/Vengosh_Brine...
hirundo 7y ago
> “In North Dakota we do not regulate based on volume,” Suess added. “Whether we put a 10 there, a 100 there, a 1,000 there is not going to change our response to the spill, it is not going to change what the responsible party has to do, not going to change their remediation, it is not going to change anything other than your curiosity.” That's a very self serving opinion Mr. Suess, since if word gets out that _millions_ of gallons were spilled under your agency's watch, yet reported as 10 gallons, that will create a lot of political pressure to change more than curiosity. That difference is a little more than "nothing to see here, move along".
- daniel-cussen 7y ago
  Yeah I wonder if that works the other way too. Suppose instead of 10, it's 1 gallon, or less. Same response?
- munk-a 7y ago
  Officially underlisting the volume, even if the state privately responds in an appropriate manner[1], ends up being misleading to the public and downplaying the environmental damage that's on-going. During the Keystone protests it was often repeated how small most spills are - now I'm curious if these small spills are just being under-reported. 1. Which I have extreme doubts about, but I'll just ignore that for a moment.
asdf333 7y ago
who this hurts most is north dakotan residents and their kids who will be drinking this and bathing in it as it seeps into the aquifer
- hwillis 7y ago
  Yup. The specific stuff released here is LNAPL[1], which is basically the light liquid components like alkanes, benzene etc. which all flow right along at the highest point of groundwater. They've been going directly into the groundwater and probably drinking water for over a decade. These things are toxic and carcinogenic. If not for the fact that ongoing pollution and spills have rendered the gulf of Mexico a hypoxic dead zone, this would probably be the biggest direct loss of life expectancy from (direct) US pollution. [1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/light-non-aqueous-phase-liquid https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci...
- chabes 7y ago
  It’s on a native American reservation. Has there ever been a time in the history of North Dakota that the state has held any sort of priority for its natives? Even without the oil industry being involved? The state of North Dakota has direct financial incentive from the oil industry. The profit margin is great enough that they can afford to lose millions of gallons of oil over a few year period and still have resources to cover it all up. I don’t foresee the state changing its priorities anytime soon. I believe fixing this will take federal oversight or intervention of some kind. Edit: This particular spill was not on a reservation, but the article talks to people on the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation who have been affected by spills on many occasions. Many of my sentiments remain.
  - ewhanley 7y ago
    The spill was in Watford City, which is not on a reservation.
    - chabes 7y ago
      You’re correct. I was confusing another part of the article that talked to folks on the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation
onevu 7y ago
bush hid the facts
lmilcin 7y ago
There is a difference between a coverup and not informative reporting. From the article: "That is despite the fact that a North Dakota regulator has acknowledged the spill was much larger, and even the official record, right after stating the spill was 10 gallons, notes that the area was “saturated with natural gas condensate of an unknown volume,” and thus may have been larger." Hardly a coverup if they immediately stated the area is "saturated".
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Reporting it as a ten gallon spill isn't mere incompetence. > Suess readily acknowledged that the officially listed spill size was too low. “We know it is significantly bigger than 10 gallons. We have known that since Day One,” Suess continued. Yet he defended the state’s decision to continue to list the spill as just 10 gallons.
  - pacoWebConsult 7y ago
    As someone that is familiar with the software which powers a lot of the Oil and gas regulatory bodies in the US, this is not uncommon. It is basically all up to inspectors and regulators to determine and enter this data, with no tie back to actual measurements or integration to sensors that track well output or detect leaks/spills. Inspectors are typically former industry workers and may have perverse reporting incentives. Places like ND and WV are rife with corruption between wealthy drilling corps and regulatory bodies.
    - chabes 7y ago
      > Inspectors are typically former industry workers and may have perverse reporting incentives. Places like ND and WV are rife with corruption between wealthy drilling corps and regulatory bodies. This is a major part of the wider issue. Regulatory bodies are financially incentivized to not work as intended. There needs to be a restructuring of the current incentives, so as to balance the priorities of the people and the planet. Unfortunately, the rule makers are the profit takers, so don’t expect them to self regulate..
  - 7y ago
40acres 7y ago
My two cents: how are the regulators funded? Is it self funded like the CFPB through fines on the entities it regulates or through the state / federal government? Self funding, while difficult and not applicable to all agencies, seems to inoculate regulatory capture somewhat. Second, what's Mr. Suess resume look like? His LinkedIn profile only shows his work as a regulator, was he in the industry in a previous life? The revolving door between industry and regulation at the highest levels seems to be a precursor to "oversights" like this.
- hwillis 7y ago
  > Self funding, while difficult and not applicable to all agencies, seems to inoculate regulatory capture somewhat. I would absolutely want to see statistical evidence of that before I supported it. Regulatory agencies are destroyed from within. If you tie funding to prosecution, a few corrupt appointees can cripple an agency for years. Simply by passing on a few big cases they would destroy the funding flow and lose critical employees even if they didn't intend to. If there is an external funding supply, it can be cut off but at least the agency will survive bad appointees. The US government in particular is built on checks and balances; betting everything on the agency keeping itself afloat is not balanced.
iron0013 7y ago
Native American anti-pipeline protesters were endlessly demonized and criminalized, violently opposed by both police and privately-funded thugs, yet their concerns were clearly absolutely valid.
- cal5k 7y ago
  If it works anything like it does in Canada, the issue is nowhere near as cut and dry as you make it out to be. I'm going to draw comparison to the Canadian situation to illustrate my point. First, the many native bands in Canada have had a variety of motivations for slowing/blocking the Trans Canada Pipeline project - some have been about environmental protection and preservation of heritage, sure, but a lot of it is political. Band leaders are, rationally, trying to maximize funds flowing from federal coffers to their bands in the form of grants, subsidies, etc. Some use this funding to help their people, and some don't - it varies widely, just like municipalities do - but holding up infrastructure projects is a tried-and-true method of getting more funding. While bands are rationally acting in their own self-interest, the government has to strongly consider the interests of the nation, state, region, etc. as a whole. All of these native concerns, plus the potential environmental impact, have to be weighed against the benefits: fewer petroleum shipments via rail, which is much more dangerous than pipelines, tax revenue, jobs in the oil & gas sector, strategically vital energy security, etc.
  - ilikehurdles 7y ago
    Oil shipments via rail are more dangerous when only measuring deaths caused (such as due to rail accidents). Oil shipped via pipeline is much more likely to spill than rail [1]. Also there's this "pretend that macroeconomics doesn't exist" notion among pro-pipeline hard-liners. By allowing crude oil to be transported in greater quantities without accounting for the permanent environmental costs, we're actively fighting against market forces that make green energy more feasible. If the supply of oil increases, then its prices drop, and the demand for alternatives to fossil fuels lessens. [1]: Congressional Research Service - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43390.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43390.pdf
SeyelentEco 7y ago
This is why we participated in the protest against the pipeline that went over the Missouri and through tribal lands a few years ago. A crack over the river would be devastating to the surrounding communities. The claims that it is unlikely we're bogus as it's been shown time after time. Worse yet, we can't trust the officials to do the right thing. It's more likely they'd hide or downplay it than make sure it's properly taken care of.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  A true pro-pipeline official would crack down on maintenance and inspections and demand that the pipeline never spill. These officials might think that they are pro-pipeline, but in reality they're pushing us towards a future where pipelines are banned entirely. It's ironic that in addition to polluting the environment in a way that sacrifices long-term health for short-term gain, they are also ruining the political environment in a way that helps them now but will make them pay in the future.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Their reward structures, and the reward structures of the people who bought them prioritize short-term planning over long-term planning. Twenty years from now, oil extraction may well be banned, regardless of whether pipelines spill under their watch. But the profits from slap-dash operation can be made today.
- kortilla 7y ago
  >The claims that it is unlikely we're bogus as it's been shown time after time. What are the stats on gallons spilled from pipelines vs trucks vs trains?
  - SeyelentEco 7y ago
    The fact that there are more evil evils doesn't counter act the argument. What a weird argument to make... It's like the"why are we funding research into X when heart disease kills more people". "Why are we focusing on guns when cars kill more people". Maybe the answer is we don't ship dangerous materials across vast distances using methods that are dangerous to the local communities. Why does the answer have to be whatever the cheapest most convenient solution for the company? It should be the solution is least likely to cause serious harm and meets the needs of the communities it impacts.
ta1234567890 7y ago
> over 11 million gallons of condensate that leaked through a crack in a pipeline for over 3 years These companies are making way too much money if they can survive for 3 years leaking that much oil.
- ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
  At the current price of oil, a gallon of oil comes out to $1.34. That's about $15 million, which though not 0, is not going to have an effect on the vast majority of oil companies.
  - spectrum1234 7y ago
    It would be nice if this price for accounting, not just for consumption, always included the negative externalities. At least this number would then be 2-5x+ as high.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  That figure means nothing without knowing the quantity of oil that doesn't leak.
- soperj 7y ago
  condensate isn't oil. It's what's used to thin out bitumen so that it'll flow through a pipe.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  I'm not sure that condensate is the same thing as "oil" - if I am thinking correctly, it's probably closer in appearance to lighter fluid than anything else. Still nasty in large quantities, but not a great loss of monetary value.
colmvp 7y ago
On a sidenote, I find it odd this story has a lot upvotes in such a short amount time, yet it's dropped from the top story to now the 15th result on the frontpage below stories that are older with fewer votes?
- dbg31415 7y ago
  Woah, WTF. It had more votes than any story above it, except one, and the votes to comments to time ratio was all better on this article. Someone at HN really hates North Dakota, doesn't feel like a coverup is something techies should be talking about. Frustrating. 23th place and falling. https://imgur.com/a/yRz9FrW https://imgur.com/a/yRz9FrW
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Or maybe it’s people flagging it because it’s unsubstantiated so far.
    - dbg31415 7y ago
      Seems like a metric that should be made visible, no? I mean... if we see votes, we should see flags... otherwise, flags are just a way to secretly control what people can see on the site.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Maybe it's the relatively low number of comments? (22 as of this post)
- iron0013 7y ago
  It happens when a story is flagged. Flagging the story (or iirc a lot of people flagging comments in a story’s comments section) will cause it to drop. I think it’s sad that people would flag this story.
lota-putty 7y ago
Now, how is US different from China again? Edit: What will you do different tomorrow? Why did it take a whistle-blower to break this news? Why did he/she refused to give out their identity? Again, how is US different from China in "covering up" you know what. * national embarrassments
- kortilla 7y ago
  China is a country in Asia, the US is a country in North America. There are many other differences that you will be able to find if you put a small amount of effort into researching such a question.
dbg31415 7y ago
Native North Dakotan here... and this really pisses me off.
apo 7y ago
The draft document here: https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/Garden%20Creek%20Spill%20Remediation%20Document%2C%20Verifies%20Spill%20at%2011%20Million%20Gallons.pdf https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/G... appears to be incomplete. Specifically, pages 3-7 appear to be missing. From the article: > Suess [the state’s Spill Investigation Program Manager] defended his agency’s methods. “What I believe the North Dakota public wants to know is not how big is it, but is this spill a risk to me,” he said. “Personally, I have actually been told by others that we are one of the most transparent agencies out there. My boss is the North Dakota taxpayer, and my door is always open, any citizen can walk in at any time and talk to me.” That statement sets off all kinds of alarm bells. Forget the facts. You can count on us to tell you what you need to know.
- jbattle 7y ago
  > “Personally, I have actually been told by others that we are one of the most transparent agencies out there” Are there really voting-age citizens that are persuaded by a comment like this?
  - vkou 7y ago
    The comment isn't supposed to persuade anyone, it's supposed to be a fig leaf for people who already support the political party in question, to cite in defense of their party. This shifts debate into an unanswerable questions - whether or not the official in question is lying.
_hyn3 7y ago
Where is the proof or evidence? Are we so captive by our own belief systems that we no longer require a single shred of evidence that anything even close to this ever occurred? Since this is a blog, it doesn't even have the benefit of built-in (although perhaps suspect these days) credibility of investigative journalists and editorial vetting at the NYT, Guardian, WSJ, etc. One would imagine that such outlets would have reporters on flights immediately. A spill larger than the Valdez would certainly be news-worthy! There are no photos of this spill in the article, except for a photo of some tainted water that could be anywhere and an irrelevant photo of salt-water contamination. I'd think that a spill of this magnitude would have highly visible proof from drone or even satellite photos, on the ground, etc. Did all of the gas condensate, and evidence, seep into a massive hole in the ground? The sole piece of "evidence" is what appears to be an email with all identifying information, logos, etc removed. Even the alleged company or investigating agencies are redacted. It doesn't appear to be an official form, purchase order, etc. It could have been completely fabricated in ten minutes in Google Docs. No deep fakes necessary. In fact, @mods, the HN headline should probably be changed from the submitter's Whistle-blower reveals N Dakota leak of 11M gallons of gas condensate in 2015 to the actual Did North Dakota Regulators Hide an Oil and Gas Industry Spill Larger Than Exxon Valdez? Even the blog's headline is a question and not an answer. As hackers/scientists/intellectuals, we should be asking for facts, hard data, and photographic evidence.
- nathanaldensr 7y ago
  It's not necessarily about the story; it's more about the narrative. When viewed this way, these unsubstantiated reports make a lot more sense. The truth isn't necessarily the goal; it's the message.
- ptaffs 7y ago
  Since you mention drones, this Browns University exhibition (#NoDAPL Movement) in Providence, RI is fascinating, https://www.brown.edu/research/facilities/haffenreffer-museum/drone-warriors-art-surveillance-and-resistance-standing-rock https://www.brown.edu/research/facilities/haffenreffer-museu... and a talk makes some content available to those not in RI: https://www.brown.edu/academics/race-ethnicity/events/sioux-surveillance-drone-warriors-and-nodapl-movement https://www.brown.edu/academics/race-ethnicity/events/sioux-... seeing the footage is interesting for hackers/scientists/intellectuals, but I link these because the establishment made it hard to get that evidence.
spodek 7y ago
I can't think of a more compelling illustration of the need for leadership at every level of government, business, and society promoting environmental stewardship, including each of us who can reduce consumption, vote, and lead others to follow suit. We can't rely on a Swedish 16-year-old with autism any more.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  The only people relying on her are other Swedish children who get to stay home from school on friday in protest.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  We have to rely on a 16 year old because governments are not providing any sort of environmental stewardship. Or any sort of leadership at all for a few decades. It's no wonder people arrive at adulthood with the impression the lunatics are running the asylum and there's no alternative to their own direct action. Why is her autism relevant?
whenanother 7y ago
the reason why you have to stop this kind of thing is because the people who are responsible are the same people behind the destruction of unions, public transportation, universal healthcare, etc. they think they are outsmarting us by getting away with crimes and stealing from us. if you don't punish the criminals they will keep committing crimes. and no getting rid of laws (deregulation) will not stop criminals from committing crimes.

354 points by howard941 7y ago

simply awful

This is appalling, but the comparison is a bit disingenuous. It's not crude oil, and it's not in the ocean where it spreads to coat an entire coastline.

habnds 7y ago
right, it's in the ground water that people are drinking.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  That does seem likely, and is another reason the comparison isn't great. The nature and impact of the two situations are wildly different in various ways.
hwillis 7y ago
It's worse, the specific stuff released here is LNAPL[1], which is basically the light liquid components like alkanes, benzene etc. They all flow right along at the highest point of groundwater. They've been going directly into the groundwater and probably drinking water for over a decade. These things are toxic and carcinogenic; they don't even put benzene in gasoline any more because just being around it for long enough will give you leukemia.
chabes 7y ago
Downplaying this so much is a bit disingenuous, I think. It’s already shown to be having a negative impact, without the spill being properly investigated yet. The real problem comes down to the state giving priority to the industry instead of its own people. The ongoing practice of minimal reporting of these incidents, as well as the conspiring to cover it up, should be investigated, and those involved should be held responsible.

mistrial9 7y ago

alt link to referenced paper: http://www.saltedlands.org/images/uploads/news/Vengosh_BrineSpills_UnconventionalOilDevelopment_NorthDakota.pdf http://www.saltedlands.org/images/uploads/news/Vengosh_Brine...

hirundo 7y ago

> “In North Dakota we do not regulate based on volume,” Suess added. “Whether we put a 10 there, a 100 there, a 1,000 there is not going to change our response to the spill, it is not going to change what the responsible party has to do, not going to change their remediation, it is not going to change anything other than your curiosity.” That's a very self serving opinion Mr. Suess, since if word gets out that _millions_ of gallons were spilled under your agency's watch, yet reported as 10 gallons, that will create a lot of political pressure to change more than curiosity. That difference is a little more than "nothing to see here, move along".

daniel-cussen 7y ago
Yeah I wonder if that works the other way too. Suppose instead of 10, it's 1 gallon, or less. Same response?
munk-a 7y ago
Officially underlisting the volume, even if the state privately responds in an appropriate manner[1], ends up being misleading to the public and downplaying the environmental damage that's on-going. During the Keystone protests it was often repeated how small most spills are - now I'm curious if these small spills are just being under-reported. 1. Which I have extreme doubts about, but I'll just ignore that for a moment.

asdf333 7y ago

who this hurts most is north dakotan residents and their kids who will be drinking this and bathing in it as it seeps into the aquifer

hwillis 7y ago
Yup. The specific stuff released here is LNAPL[1], which is basically the light liquid components like alkanes, benzene etc. which all flow right along at the highest point of groundwater. They've been going directly into the groundwater and probably drinking water for over a decade. These things are toxic and carcinogenic. If not for the fact that ongoing pollution and spills have rendered the gulf of Mexico a hypoxic dead zone, this would probably be the biggest direct loss of life expectancy from (direct) US pollution. [1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/light-non-aqueous-phase-liquid https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci...
chabes 7y ago
It’s on a native American reservation. Has there ever been a time in the history of North Dakota that the state has held any sort of priority for its natives? Even without the oil industry being involved? The state of North Dakota has direct financial incentive from the oil industry. The profit margin is great enough that they can afford to lose millions of gallons of oil over a few year period and still have resources to cover it all up. I don’t foresee the state changing its priorities anytime soon. I believe fixing this will take federal oversight or intervention of some kind. Edit: This particular spill was not on a reservation, but the article talks to people on the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation who have been affected by spills on many occasions. Many of my sentiments remain.
- ewhanley 7y ago
  The spill was in Watford City, which is not on a reservation.
  - chabes 7y ago
    You’re correct. I was confusing another part of the article that talked to folks on the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation

onevu 7y ago

bush hid the facts

lmilcin 7y ago

There is a difference between a coverup and not informative reporting. From the article: "That is despite the fact that a North Dakota regulator has acknowledged the spill was much larger, and even the official record, right after stating the spill was 10 gallons, notes that the area was “saturated with natural gas condensate of an unknown volume,” and thus may have been larger." Hardly a coverup if they immediately stated the area is "saturated".

ceejayoz 7y ago
Reporting it as a ten gallon spill isn't mere incompetence. > Suess readily acknowledged that the officially listed spill size was too low. “We know it is significantly bigger than 10 gallons. We have known that since Day One,” Suess continued. Yet he defended the state’s decision to continue to list the spill as just 10 gallons.
- pacoWebConsult 7y ago
  As someone that is familiar with the software which powers a lot of the Oil and gas regulatory bodies in the US, this is not uncommon. It is basically all up to inspectors and regulators to determine and enter this data, with no tie back to actual measurements or integration to sensors that track well output or detect leaks/spills. Inspectors are typically former industry workers and may have perverse reporting incentives. Places like ND and WV are rife with corruption between wealthy drilling corps and regulatory bodies.
  - chabes 7y ago
    > Inspectors are typically former industry workers and may have perverse reporting incentives. Places like ND and WV are rife with corruption between wealthy drilling corps and regulatory bodies. This is a major part of the wider issue. Regulatory bodies are financially incentivized to not work as intended. There needs to be a restructuring of the current incentives, so as to balance the priorities of the people and the planet. Unfortunately, the rule makers are the profit takers, so don’t expect them to self regulate..
- 7y ago

40acres 7y ago

My two cents: how are the regulators funded? Is it self funded like the CFPB through fines on the entities it regulates or through the state / federal government? Self funding, while difficult and not applicable to all agencies, seems to inoculate regulatory capture somewhat. Second, what's Mr. Suess resume look like? His LinkedIn profile only shows his work as a regulator, was he in the industry in a previous life? The revolving door between industry and regulation at the highest levels seems to be a precursor to "oversights" like this.

hwillis 7y ago
> Self funding, while difficult and not applicable to all agencies, seems to inoculate regulatory capture somewhat. I would absolutely want to see statistical evidence of that before I supported it. Regulatory agencies are destroyed from within. If you tie funding to prosecution, a few corrupt appointees can cripple an agency for years. Simply by passing on a few big cases they would destroy the funding flow and lose critical employees even if they didn't intend to. If there is an external funding supply, it can be cut off but at least the agency will survive bad appointees. The US government in particular is built on checks and balances; betting everything on the agency keeping itself afloat is not balanced.

iron0013 7y ago

Native American anti-pipeline protesters were endlessly demonized and criminalized, violently opposed by both police and privately-funded thugs, yet their concerns were clearly absolutely valid.

cal5k 7y ago
If it works anything like it does in Canada, the issue is nowhere near as cut and dry as you make it out to be. I'm going to draw comparison to the Canadian situation to illustrate my point. First, the many native bands in Canada have had a variety of motivations for slowing/blocking the Trans Canada Pipeline project - some have been about environmental protection and preservation of heritage, sure, but a lot of it is political. Band leaders are, rationally, trying to maximize funds flowing from federal coffers to their bands in the form of grants, subsidies, etc. Some use this funding to help their people, and some don't - it varies widely, just like municipalities do - but holding up infrastructure projects is a tried-and-true method of getting more funding. While bands are rationally acting in their own self-interest, the government has to strongly consider the interests of the nation, state, region, etc. as a whole. All of these native concerns, plus the potential environmental impact, have to be weighed against the benefits: fewer petroleum shipments via rail, which is much more dangerous than pipelines, tax revenue, jobs in the oil & gas sector, strategically vital energy security, etc.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  Oil shipments via rail are more dangerous when only measuring deaths caused (such as due to rail accidents). Oil shipped via pipeline is much more likely to spill than rail [1]. Also there's this "pretend that macroeconomics doesn't exist" notion among pro-pipeline hard-liners. By allowing crude oil to be transported in greater quantities without accounting for the permanent environmental costs, we're actively fighting against market forces that make green energy more feasible. If the supply of oil increases, then its prices drop, and the demand for alternatives to fossil fuels lessens. [1]: Congressional Research Service - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43390.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43390.pdf

SeyelentEco 7y ago

This is why we participated in the protest against the pipeline that went over the Missouri and through tribal lands a few years ago. A crack over the river would be devastating to the surrounding communities. The claims that it is unlikely we're bogus as it's been shown time after time. Worse yet, we can't trust the officials to do the right thing. It's more likely they'd hide or downplay it than make sure it's properly taken care of.

whatshisface 7y ago
A true pro-pipeline official would crack down on maintenance and inspections and demand that the pipeline never spill. These officials might think that they are pro-pipeline, but in reality they're pushing us towards a future where pipelines are banned entirely. It's ironic that in addition to polluting the environment in a way that sacrifices long-term health for short-term gain, they are also ruining the political environment in a way that helps them now but will make them pay in the future.
- vkou 7y ago
  Their reward structures, and the reward structures of the people who bought them prioritize short-term planning over long-term planning. Twenty years from now, oil extraction may well be banned, regardless of whether pipelines spill under their watch. But the profits from slap-dash operation can be made today.
kortilla 7y ago
>The claims that it is unlikely we're bogus as it's been shown time after time. What are the stats on gallons spilled from pipelines vs trucks vs trains?
- SeyelentEco 7y ago
  The fact that there are more evil evils doesn't counter act the argument. What a weird argument to make... It's like the"why are we funding research into X when heart disease kills more people". "Why are we focusing on guns when cars kill more people". Maybe the answer is we don't ship dangerous materials across vast distances using methods that are dangerous to the local communities. Why does the answer have to be whatever the cheapest most convenient solution for the company? It should be the solution is least likely to cause serious harm and meets the needs of the communities it impacts.

ta1234567890 7y ago

> over 11 million gallons of condensate that leaked through a crack in a pipeline for over 3 years These companies are making way too much money if they can survive for 3 years leaking that much oil.

ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
At the current price of oil, a gallon of oil comes out to $1.34. That's about $15 million, which though not 0, is not going to have an effect on the vast majority of oil companies.
- spectrum1234 7y ago
  It would be nice if this price for accounting, not just for consumption, always included the negative externalities. At least this number would then be 2-5x+ as high.
hombre_fatal 7y ago
That figure means nothing without knowing the quantity of oil that doesn't leak.
soperj 7y ago
condensate isn't oil. It's what's used to thin out bitumen so that it'll flow through a pipe.
cr0sh 7y ago
I'm not sure that condensate is the same thing as "oil" - if I am thinking correctly, it's probably closer in appearance to lighter fluid than anything else. Still nasty in large quantities, but not a great loss of monetary value.

colmvp 7y ago

On a sidenote, I find it odd this story has a lot upvotes in such a short amount time, yet it's dropped from the top story to now the 15th result on the frontpage below stories that are older with fewer votes?

dbg31415 7y ago
Woah, WTF. It had more votes than any story above it, except one, and the votes to comments to time ratio was all better on this article. Someone at HN really hates North Dakota, doesn't feel like a coverup is something techies should be talking about. Frustrating. 23th place and falling. https://imgur.com/a/yRz9FrW https://imgur.com/a/yRz9FrW
- kortilla 7y ago
  Or maybe it’s people flagging it because it’s unsubstantiated so far.
  - dbg31415 7y ago
    Seems like a metric that should be made visible, no? I mean... if we see votes, we should see flags... otherwise, flags are just a way to secretly control what people can see on the site.
ineedasername 7y ago
Maybe it's the relatively low number of comments? (22 as of this post)
iron0013 7y ago
It happens when a story is flagged. Flagging the story (or iirc a lot of people flagging comments in a story’s comments section) will cause it to drop. I think it’s sad that people would flag this story.

lota-putty 7y ago

Now, how is US different from China again? Edit: What will you do different tomorrow? Why did it take a whistle-blower to break this news? Why did he/she refused to give out their identity? Again, how is US different from China in "covering up" you know what. * national embarrassments

kortilla 7y ago
China is a country in Asia, the US is a country in North America. There are many other differences that you will be able to find if you put a small amount of effort into researching such a question.

dbg31415 7y ago

Native North Dakotan here... and this really pisses me off.

apo 7y ago

The draft document here: https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/Garden%20Creek%20Spill%20Remediation%20Document%2C%20Verifies%20Spill%20at%2011%20Million%20Gallons.pdf https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/G... appears to be incomplete. Specifically, pages 3-7 appear to be missing. From the article: > Suess [the state’s Spill Investigation Program Manager] defended his agency’s methods. “What I believe the North Dakota public wants to know is not how big is it, but is this spill a risk to me,” he said. “Personally, I have actually been told by others that we are one of the most transparent agencies out there. My boss is the North Dakota taxpayer, and my door is always open, any citizen can walk in at any time and talk to me.” That statement sets off all kinds of alarm bells. Forget the facts. You can count on us to tell you what you need to know.

jbattle 7y ago
> “Personally, I have actually been told by others that we are one of the most transparent agencies out there” Are there really voting-age citizens that are persuaded by a comment like this?
- vkou 7y ago
  The comment isn't supposed to persuade anyone, it's supposed to be a fig leaf for people who already support the political party in question, to cite in defense of their party. This shifts debate into an unanswerable questions - whether or not the official in question is lying.

_hyn3 7y ago

Where is the proof or evidence? Are we so captive by our own belief systems that we no longer require a single shred of evidence that anything even close to this ever occurred? Since this is a blog, it doesn't even have the benefit of built-in (although perhaps suspect these days) credibility of investigative journalists and editorial vetting at the NYT, Guardian, WSJ, etc. One would imagine that such outlets would have reporters on flights immediately. A spill larger than the Valdez would certainly be news-worthy! There are no photos of this spill in the article, except for a photo of some tainted water that could be anywhere and an irrelevant photo of salt-water contamination. I'd think that a spill of this magnitude would have highly visible proof from drone or even satellite photos, on the ground, etc. Did all of the gas condensate, and evidence, seep into a massive hole in the ground? The sole piece of "evidence" is what appears to be an email with all identifying information, logos, etc removed. Even the alleged company or investigating agencies are redacted. It doesn't appear to be an official form, purchase order, etc. It could have been completely fabricated in ten minutes in Google Docs. No deep fakes necessary. In fact, @mods, the HN headline should probably be changed from the submitter's Whistle-blower reveals N Dakota leak of 11M gallons of gas condensate in 2015 to the actual Did North Dakota Regulators Hide an Oil and Gas Industry Spill Larger Than Exxon Valdez? Even the blog's headline is a question and not an answer. As hackers/scientists/intellectuals, we should be asking for facts, hard data, and photographic evidence.

nathanaldensr 7y ago
It's not necessarily about the story; it's more about the narrative. When viewed this way, these unsubstantiated reports make a lot more sense. The truth isn't necessarily the goal; it's the message.
ptaffs 7y ago
Since you mention drones, this Browns University exhibition (#NoDAPL Movement) in Providence, RI is fascinating, https://www.brown.edu/research/facilities/haffenreffer-museum/drone-warriors-art-surveillance-and-resistance-standing-rock https://www.brown.edu/research/facilities/haffenreffer-museu... and a talk makes some content available to those not in RI: https://www.brown.edu/academics/race-ethnicity/events/sioux-surveillance-drone-warriors-and-nodapl-movement https://www.brown.edu/academics/race-ethnicity/events/sioux-... seeing the footage is interesting for hackers/scientists/intellectuals, but I link these because the establishment made it hard to get that evidence.

spodek 7y ago

I can't think of a more compelling illustration of the need for leadership at every level of government, business, and society promoting environmental stewardship, including each of us who can reduce consumption, vote, and lead others to follow suit. We can't rely on a Swedish 16-year-old with autism any more.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
The only people relying on her are other Swedish children who get to stay home from school on friday in protest.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
We have to rely on a 16 year old because governments are not providing any sort of environmental stewardship. Or any sort of leadership at all for a few decades. It's no wonder people arrive at adulthood with the impression the lunatics are running the asylum and there's no alternative to their own direct action. Why is her autism relevant?

whenanother 7y ago

the reason why you have to stop this kind of thing is because the people who are responsible are the same people behind the destruction of unions, public transportation, universal healthcare, etc. they think they are outsmarting us by getting away with crimes and stealing from us. if you don't punish the criminals they will keep committing crimes. and no getting rid of laws (deregulation) will not stop criminals from committing crimes.