7 ms·

Brasil needs to be heavily sanctioned by the international community, I'm talking Cuba-level stuff if we want to even have a chance at stopping the rise above 2

by vfc1 7y ago

Brasil needs to be heavily sanctioned by the international community, I'm talking Cuba-level stuff if we want to even have a chance at stopping the rise above 2 degrees, we only have 12 years which means that it's already probably too late. More worrying is the rise of populism in the world supported by fake news, ignorance and social media that led to this. How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he says?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
darkwater 7y ago
> How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he says? Just like Trump, probably.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Anecdotally, having met a few Brazilians who voted for him, the phrase "taking him seriously, not literally" does seem to apply as well. That said, other than that the situations seem quite different. Brazil was in a political quagmire that is hard to fathom in the US, at least for someone seeing both from afar.
dna_polymerase 7y ago
Would be all for the sanctions, but the EU just signed a free trade agreement with Brazil (Mercosur). That agreement put Brazil's farmers at an advantage, they can now sell to the EU, and produce cheaper than European farmers. If anything that accelerated the trend we see now in the Amazon. Also, Trump's trade war with China led China to heavily invest in Brazil's soy. Another accelerator of Amazon burning. So, after all it isn't just Bolsonaro, it is also our (the western world) fault. The officials we elected allow for this in the first place.
- icebraining 7y ago
  What part of the EU-Mercosur agreement do you see impacting this? Soya was already imported without tariffs, and the low-tariff beef quota is just 100k tonnes, divided over the four Mercosur countries, whereas Brazil alone already produces 11 million tonnes of beef.
Scarblac 7y ago
The US burns by far the most fossil fuel per capita. If any country needs to be sanctioned for causing climate change, it's the US.
- donkeyd 7y ago
  I don't disagree, but burning the Amazon has a double effect, it releases massive amounts of CO2, but also kills trees that can remove the CO2. The Amazon is called the 'lungs of our world' for a reason.
- avocado4 7y ago
  Climate change doesn't work on a per-capita basis.
  - rypskar 7y ago
    How else do it aggregate to the sum of all on earth? Climate change do not care about borders
  - Scarblac 7y ago
    Humans do. No human is going to accept emitting less CO2 just because they live in a populous country, if other humans are allowed to emit more per person just because they live in a less populated country.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Guess what? If you're driving a massive SUV and heating your home every winter, I'm not going to listen to you telling me I have to oil the bearings on my bike to prevent friction heating. Take the beam out of your eye and maybe I'll listen.
- marble-drink 7y ago
  Yeah. Even Europeans are shocked at the level of consumption in the US. Driving absolutely everywhere. Air conditioning everywhere keeping the buildings colder than necessary. Heating keeping them warmer than necessary. All plastic packaging is twice as thick and there's twice as much of it. Eating enough food to maintain an overweight/obese body. It's an extremely wasteful society. If we as a species are going to do anything it has to be all together. We all have to make cuts. Only a tiny number of individuals will voluntarily give up what they have. Why would they? It's just not fair. Many simply can't give it up without losing their jobs etc. We cannot point at Brasil while we are also living far beyond our means.
ptah 7y ago
it would be more effectiveif the northern hemisphere started paying a rainforest tax to the southern as proposed by the likes of prince charles
- icebraining 7y ago
  Equador tried asking for that, but it was ignored: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ecuador-asks-world-to-pay-to-keep-yasuni-oil-underground/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ecuador-asks-worl...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Hitton 7y ago
I consider such approach rather oppressive and reeking of colonialism attitudes. It sounds like: "Fuck Brasil, let's ban them from using their natural resources, while we happily keep using ours". There is literally no reason why other countries countries couldn't plant more forests to enhance their carbon depositions, now Brasil thanks to their rainforests does more of biosequestration than any other country on Earth and don't they dare doing less and not pick other nations' slack... Also 12 years is just another arbitrary alarmist number, similarly to recently heard 18 months [1]. But in reality there is no upcoming end of the world [2]. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736 [2]: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate-change-will-not-end-the-world-in-12-years/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate...
- sprafa 7y ago
  IT is colonialist, patronizing, and evil. The US and the "developed" world have set course for self annihilation and the US in particular has done nothing to solve its own path by leaving the Paris Agreement. But hey let's blame Brasil, easier than solving our own problems.
  - vfc1 7y ago
    Two things can be true at the same time. Clearly, both countries should change their behavior. I think what is happening in Basil is mostly due to the West fault, due to demand for cheap meat. The Amazonian forest is mostly being tore down due to soy production for cattle feed.
  - piva00 7y ago
    Why are you so defensive about all of this?
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      How is this not obvious? Industrialization is a rapid road to prosperity. The West industrialized and is prosperous, and now requires the other countries not take the path they took? It’s never going to happen. You can’t dump 7 times as much carbon as a Brazilian into the atmosphere and then ask them to cut emissions. Especially when you have the money and resources to be carbon negative and choose not to.
sprafa 7y ago
So the "developed" world sets course for anihilating itself and Brasil gets the blame? How very American of you.
sarcasmOrTears 7y ago
When political parties that want to combat climate change also think that pumping kids full of hormones to change their "gender", bashing the most productive group (white men) costantly, demographic replacement of native europeans or the infinite amount of crazy privileged californian bs they pull off are a good idea, yeah, you do get Bolsonaro and Trump just for what they represent. Maybe I'm a retarded nazi, but if you truly believed the world was at risk you would put on temporary hold things nobody cared about for thousands of years (like perfect income equality between men and women), and try to solve the end of the world first. Instead you get a smuggy autistic underage blonde on a boat, a delirant mexican barista who wants to abolish planes but it's just a draft, and a bunch of overpaid scientists, bureaucrats and economists flying around the world to jerk each other off with fake solutions like the Paris accord or even worse, fake data. I say this as a person who is conservative, libertarian but also recognize that climate change is gonna fck us all and coercion is needed. Please don't forget to subscribe to my channel and downvote, after all supporting the idea you can let the inferior classes dominate politics and also solve the biggest threat humanity ever faced is totally gonna work. Goodbye
- doliveira 7y ago
  "Maybe I'm a retarded nazi," At least you know that.
  - sarcasmOrTears 7y ago
    I just DON'T want to watch the world burn, like priority number 1 desire.
KnightOfWords 7y ago
> Brasil needs to be heavily sanctioned by the international community... Along with the US, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Australia. And probably a bunch of others.
PauloManrique 7y ago
I'm a Brazilian, and yes, our country needs to be heavily sanctioned until this president wakes up. Yeah, first world countries made bad decisions in the past, but by 2019 everyone should know better. And he knows it, he just don't give a damn about it.
screye 7y ago
> How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he says? This has to be sarcasm right ? You ask that question when Duterte, Erdogan, Trump, Brexit, LePen and the like have occurred in the last 5 years preceding him. Bolsonaro was democratically elected. We may not like it (I absolutely despise him), but that is the will of the people. Naive, easily misled and disheartened people. But, democrated elected nevertheless.

by vfc1 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

darkwater 7y ago

> How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he says? Just like Trump, probably.

icebraining 7y ago
Anecdotally, having met a few Brazilians who voted for him, the phrase "taking him seriously, not literally" does seem to apply as well. That said, other than that the situations seem quite different. Brazil was in a political quagmire that is hard to fathom in the US, at least for someone seeing both from afar.

dna_polymerase 7y ago

Would be all for the sanctions, but the EU just signed a free trade agreement with Brazil (Mercosur). That agreement put Brazil's farmers at an advantage, they can now sell to the EU, and produce cheaper than European farmers. If anything that accelerated the trend we see now in the Amazon. Also, Trump's trade war with China led China to heavily invest in Brazil's soy. Another accelerator of Amazon burning. So, after all it isn't just Bolsonaro, it is also our (the western world) fault. The officials we elected allow for this in the first place.

icebraining 7y ago
What part of the EU-Mercosur agreement do you see impacting this? Soya was already imported without tariffs, and the low-tariff beef quota is just 100k tonnes, divided over the four Mercosur countries, whereas Brazil alone already produces 11 million tonnes of beef.

Scarblac 7y ago

The US burns by far the most fossil fuel per capita. If any country needs to be sanctioned for causing climate change, it's the US.

donkeyd 7y ago
I don't disagree, but burning the Amazon has a double effect, it releases massive amounts of CO2, but also kills trees that can remove the CO2. The Amazon is called the 'lungs of our world' for a reason.
avocado4 7y ago
Climate change doesn't work on a per-capita basis.
- rypskar 7y ago
  How else do it aggregate to the sum of all on earth? Climate change do not care about borders
- Scarblac 7y ago
  Humans do. No human is going to accept emitting less CO2 just because they live in a populous country, if other humans are allowed to emit more per person just because they live in a less populated country.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Guess what? If you're driving a massive SUV and heating your home every winter, I'm not going to listen to you telling me I have to oil the bearings on my bike to prevent friction heating. Take the beam out of your eye and maybe I'll listen.
marble-drink 7y ago
Yeah. Even Europeans are shocked at the level of consumption in the US. Driving absolutely everywhere. Air conditioning everywhere keeping the buildings colder than necessary. Heating keeping them warmer than necessary. All plastic packaging is twice as thick and there's twice as much of it. Eating enough food to maintain an overweight/obese body. It's an extremely wasteful society. If we as a species are going to do anything it has to be all together. We all have to make cuts. Only a tiny number of individuals will voluntarily give up what they have. Why would they? It's just not fair. Many simply can't give it up without losing their jobs etc. We cannot point at Brasil while we are also living far beyond our means.

ptah 7y ago

it would be more effectiveif the northern hemisphere started paying a rainforest tax to the southern as proposed by the likes of prince charles

icebraining 7y ago
Equador tried asking for that, but it was ignored: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ecuador-asks-world-to-pay-to-keep-yasuni-oil-underground/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ecuador-asks-worl...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Hitton 7y ago

I consider such approach rather oppressive and reeking of colonialism attitudes. It sounds like: "Fuck Brasil, let's ban them from using their natural resources, while we happily keep using ours". There is literally no reason why other countries countries couldn't plant more forests to enhance their carbon depositions, now Brasil thanks to their rainforests does more of biosequestration than any other country on Earth and don't they dare doing less and not pick other nations' slack... Also 12 years is just another arbitrary alarmist number, similarly to recently heard 18 months [1]. But in reality there is no upcoming end of the world [2]. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736 [2]: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate-change-will-not-end-the-world-in-12-years/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate...

sprafa 7y ago
IT is colonialist, patronizing, and evil. The US and the "developed" world have set course for self annihilation and the US in particular has done nothing to solve its own path by leaving the Paris Agreement. But hey let's blame Brasil, easier than solving our own problems.
- vfc1 7y ago
  Two things can be true at the same time. Clearly, both countries should change their behavior. I think what is happening in Basil is mostly due to the West fault, due to demand for cheap meat. The Amazonian forest is mostly being tore down due to soy production for cattle feed.
- piva00 7y ago
  Why are you so defensive about all of this?
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    How is this not obvious? Industrialization is a rapid road to prosperity. The West industrialized and is prosperous, and now requires the other countries not take the path they took? It’s never going to happen. You can’t dump 7 times as much carbon as a Brazilian into the atmosphere and then ask them to cut emissions. Especially when you have the money and resources to be carbon negative and choose not to.

sprafa 7y ago

So the "developed" world sets course for anihilating itself and Brasil gets the blame? How very American of you.

sarcasmOrTears 7y ago

When political parties that want to combat climate change also think that pumping kids full of hormones to change their "gender", bashing the most productive group (white men) costantly, demographic replacement of native europeans or the infinite amount of crazy privileged californian bs they pull off are a good idea, yeah, you do get Bolsonaro and Trump just for what they represent. Maybe I'm a retarded nazi, but if you truly believed the world was at risk you would put on temporary hold things nobody cared about for thousands of years (like perfect income equality between men and women), and try to solve the end of the world first. Instead you get a smuggy autistic underage blonde on a boat, a delirant mexican barista who wants to abolish planes but it's just a draft, and a bunch of overpaid scientists, bureaucrats and economists flying around the world to jerk each other off with fake solutions like the Paris accord or even worse, fake data. I say this as a person who is conservative, libertarian but also recognize that climate change is gonna fck us all and coercion is needed. Please don't forget to subscribe to my channel and downvote, after all supporting the idea you can let the inferior classes dominate politics and also solve the biggest threat humanity ever faced is totally gonna work. Goodbye

doliveira 7y ago
"Maybe I'm a retarded nazi," At least you know that.
- sarcasmOrTears 7y ago
  I just DON'T want to watch the world burn, like priority number 1 desire.

KnightOfWords 7y ago

> Brasil needs to be heavily sanctioned by the international community... Along with the US, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Australia. And probably a bunch of others.

PauloManrique 7y ago

I'm a Brazilian, and yes, our country needs to be heavily sanctioned until this president wakes up. Yeah, first world countries made bad decisions in the past, but by 2019 everyone should know better. And he knows it, he just don't give a damn about it.

screye 7y ago

> How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he says? This has to be sarcasm right ? You ask that question when Duterte, Erdogan, Trump, Brexit, LePen and the like have occurred in the last 5 years preceding him. Bolsonaro was democratically elected. We may not like it (I absolutely despise him), but that is the will of the people. Naive, easily misled and disheartened people. But, democrated elected nevertheless.