4 ms·

You could have read the document before spewing toxic FUD about the kind of things mentally ill people supposedly do. Here's the section that addresses your co

You could have read the document before spewing toxic FUD about the kind of things mentally ill people supposedly do. Here's the section that addresses your concern: "All persons, including those with disabilities, have a duty to do no harm. Legal systems based on the rule of law have criminal and other laws in place to deal with the breach of this obligation. Persons with disabilities are frequently denied equal protection under these laws by being diverted to a separate track of law, including through mental health laws. These laws and procedures commonly have a lower standard when it comes to human rights protection, particularly the right to due process and fair trial, and are incompatible with article 13 in conjunction with article 14 of the Convention."

agdpf 7y ago
It's normal that mental health laws have a lower standard for "human rights" when mentally ill people often behave in unexpected, illogical, and dangerous ways. We have to accommodate for that, for the safety of humans.
- notfashion 7y ago
  Here we go again with the FUD: "mentally ill people often behave in ... dangerous ways". This kind of claim is harmful to the mentally ill as a group, because it is just not true. The vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous. You seem to be arguing also that it is only the mentally ill who often behave in "unexpected, illogical and dangerous ways". The reality is that humans in general sometimes do that, whether or not they have a clinical mental health problem. The way your comment insinuates that the mentally ill are sub-human is repellent, but I suppose you might not even realize that you are doing that. You may think of yourself as a model of logical, predictable and safe behaviour. I'm so tired of engineers who deny that there is any irrational element in their makeup. It is a naive thing to claim and a lame kind of deluded bid for superiority. "Others might be irrational, but not me!" Spare us. That attitude is the curse of HN and YC.
  - pkaye 7y ago
    >The vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous. Now can you talk about the minority who are dangerous to themselves and others around them and what should be done about them?
  - giggles_giggles 7y ago
    You're projecting. The post you're responding to specified action needs to be taken WHEN the mentally ill act in a way that endangers themselves or others. This certainly happens, and it's inhumane to pretend that, for example, a paranoid schizophrenic is better off homeless and filthy and hungry because they dont trust health workers than they are fed and housed against their will. Also, the comment you're replying to did nothing to indicate that the mentally ill are subhuman. By your logic it would be demeaning and wrong to pull a suicidal person away from a ledge against their will. Feh to that I say. Feh!
    - jolmg 7y ago
      > Also, the comment you're replying to did nothing to indicate that the mentally ill are subhuman. Probably the scare-quotes around "human rights" in the first sentence when in the context of the mentally ill, and talking about protecting humans from them as if they weren't human, too. I suppose it's ambiguous, but it's not hard to interpret it like that.
      - agdpf 7y ago
        I don't believe in human rights. But about the second part: by "humans" I also meant the mentally ill. (By helping them, you're protecting them from themselves, too.)
        jolmg 7y ago
        Yes, I figured. What do you mean about not believing in human rights, though? I'm intrigued. I mean you can't be saying you don't believe they exist, because they're a human invention. Are you saying you don't believe they should exist?
pfisch 7y ago
But it seems wrong to put a mentally ill person in jail for crimes a lot of the time because it isn't necessarily within their control and/or they lack mens rhea. So either we have 2 tracks or we continue to fill jails with the mentally ill even though it is obviously an incorrect application of justice.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
A somewhat analogous issue has been pointed out with the juvenile justice system in the US. Ostensibly, these "softer" courts allow for a less formal approach that will help young offenders; in reality, that lack basic due process protections, hurting the innocent and helping only the guilty. Really, it's the same as any other argument for fewer protections against government: these hassles get in the way, so just get rid of them and trust us more. > What results is an environment where boundaries are blurred and children accused of crimes are made to believe that everyone in the courtroom is there to “help” them when, in reality, defense attorneys are the only parties obligated to advocate on their behalf. - The Marshall Project, https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/05/15/give-juveniles-their-due https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/05/15/give-juveniles...

agdpf 7y ago

It's normal that mental health laws have a lower standard for "human rights" when mentally ill people often behave in unexpected, illogical, and dangerous ways. We have to accommodate for that, for the safety of humans.

notfashion 7y ago
Here we go again with the FUD: "mentally ill people often behave in ... dangerous ways". This kind of claim is harmful to the mentally ill as a group, because it is just not true. The vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous. You seem to be arguing also that it is only the mentally ill who often behave in "unexpected, illogical and dangerous ways". The reality is that humans in general sometimes do that, whether or not they have a clinical mental health problem. The way your comment insinuates that the mentally ill are sub-human is repellent, but I suppose you might not even realize that you are doing that. You may think of yourself as a model of logical, predictable and safe behaviour. I'm so tired of engineers who deny that there is any irrational element in their makeup. It is a naive thing to claim and a lame kind of deluded bid for superiority. "Others might be irrational, but not me!" Spare us. That attitude is the curse of HN and YC.
- pkaye 7y ago
  >The vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous. Now can you talk about the minority who are dangerous to themselves and others around them and what should be done about them?
- giggles_giggles 7y ago
  You're projecting. The post you're responding to specified action needs to be taken WHEN the mentally ill act in a way that endangers themselves or others. This certainly happens, and it's inhumane to pretend that, for example, a paranoid schizophrenic is better off homeless and filthy and hungry because they dont trust health workers than they are fed and housed against their will. Also, the comment you're replying to did nothing to indicate that the mentally ill are subhuman. By your logic it would be demeaning and wrong to pull a suicidal person away from a ledge against their will. Feh to that I say. Feh!
  - jolmg 7y ago
    > Also, the comment you're replying to did nothing to indicate that the mentally ill are subhuman. Probably the scare-quotes around "human rights" in the first sentence when in the context of the mentally ill, and talking about protecting humans from them as if they weren't human, too. I suppose it's ambiguous, but it's not hard to interpret it like that.
    - agdpf 7y ago
      I don't believe in human rights. But about the second part: by "humans" I also meant the mentally ill. (By helping them, you're protecting them from themselves, too.)
      - jolmg 7y ago
        Yes, I figured. What do you mean about not believing in human rights, though? I'm intrigued. I mean you can't be saying you don't believe they exist, because they're a human invention. Are you saying you don't believe they should exist?

pfisch 7y ago

But it seems wrong to put a mentally ill person in jail for crimes a lot of the time because it isn't necessarily within their control and/or they lack mens rhea. So either we have 2 tracks or we continue to fill jails with the mentally ill even though it is obviously an incorrect application of justice.

morpheuskafka 7y ago

A somewhat analogous issue has been pointed out with the juvenile justice system in the US. Ostensibly, these "softer" courts allow for a less formal approach that will help young offenders; in reality, that lack basic due process protections, hurting the innocent and helping only the guilty. Really, it's the same as any other argument for fewer protections against government: these hassles get in the way, so just get rid of them and trust us more. > What results is an environment where boundaries are blurred and children accused of crimes are made to believe that everyone in the courtroom is there to “help” them when, in reality, defense attorneys are the only parties obligated to advocate on their behalf. - The Marshall Project, https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/05/15/give-juveniles-their-due https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/05/15/give-juveniles...