4 ms·

Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of

Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data. There are plenty of issues with DRM from a practical and philosophical level. But I think calling it malware is disingenuous. Alice doesn't cede her rights over her data by transmitting it to Bob, and DRM is how Alice protects the data when Bob is a malicious actor. If Bob wants to gain more privileges over all his data, he doesn't need to accept communication from Alice. That said, buggy DRM can be atrocious and cost more money than it saves. I know plenty of folks who pirate software they own because it's easier than an legal install. But that's a UX problem, not a DRM problem.

saagarjha 7y ago
> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. Barring quantum technology, I don't think this is possible.
- ben_w 7y ago
  Even with quantum technology, there is such a thing as a “good enough” copy — my phone can record 4k/60fps, and while it would be a bit fiddly to set it up right to copy a video by filming a display, it can be done.
johannes1234321 7y ago
By sending it me you have to copy it, either onto a medium or network, I then have to copy it (from some medium/network at least into main memory and then copy either into video or audio memory which then do magic to highlight pixels or create audio waves) The copy is essence of what a computer does. A computer can essentially only do some math and copying. If you ask me to install some DRM software (or maybe even some hardware containing DRM stuff as in HDMI) you are asking me to run additional complex software where the only purpose is to restrict the functionality of my computer. I do that, since I like some movies and other things I get this way. However the software serves no purpose to me as the user. It is there to do Digital Restriction Management.
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  When Apple dropped DRM from their music downloads it was a great day. Suddenly one could download music for a competitive price legally from the internet and use in all the ways. Putting it on my mp3 player or my media server and create a backup, which I can trust to be usable even a few years. If a new audio standard comes by I even can re-encode and keep it. Meanwhile however we have Spotify and are back in the walled garden. Movie industry unfortunately went directly from physical media (with stupid DRM restrictions - my favorite one is that on a "legal" DVD player I am forced to watch a short sequence on how bad pirates are, on my "illegal" DRM free player I can skip that part) to streaming. Making sure I don't "own" a thing and making sure my computer runs software limiting what I can do with my computer.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    In the legal sense, buying from iTunes is actually "buying", while you do just rent access (similar to a Gym membership) when you sign up for Apple Music or Spotify. I don't blame them for using DRM for music when the user needs a perpetual license to continue listening to it.
- spookthesunset 7y ago
  These kinds of reductionist arguments don't hold much water in the real world. Using arguments like this you can justify ransomware--after all ransomware is just CPU instructions running on a computer. That is what computers do is run instructions. Therefore, it is totally okay if the instructions happen to encrypt the entire contents of a disk and prevent the user from accessing it until they pay money. Here in meatspace, we have this notion of ownership and property rights. DRM is a mechanism to protect those rights. They may not be perfect, and they might not always make much business sense but that is their intent.
  - johannes1234321 7y ago
    The ransomware doesn't do what I as owner of the computer want and nothing which serves me a purpose. The comparison doesn't work. If you look for a comparison: DRM is like a book publisher printing books on special paper which prevents copying and which can only be read in a specific angle so I can't easily take notes containing quotes from the book. All to protect those rights. (Edit: actually that example is missing a piece - you need special reading glasses to be able to read it, that's what DRM is doing on my machine) And yes - Napster was an issue for the music industry. Suddenly their content was there for free and easily accessible. But then there was Apple, giving music away DRM-free with even better usability and for an acceptable fee.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data. That's a nice way of phrasing it from the business point of view. From the customer point of view, it's degrading the product and artificially limiting the ways one can interact with it. It goes against the fundamental principle of general-purpose computing: as a computer owner, I get to tell what the computer can and cannot do with the data it has. DRM in its most general form exists as a way to (try to) make some data follow a different set of rules than the rules of the medium. It's an attempt of making bits have colour[0]. Since bits don't, and can't, have colour, you have to simulate this by changing the rules of the universe in which those bits are processed. It's practically impossible to do correctly, hence the product degradation that always accompanies DRM schemes. Adding insult to injury, DRM is usually employed to force a recurring revenue stream in a context where it fundamentally doesn't make sense. -- [0] - https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
monster99 7y ago
As someone who lived through the glorious 90's before internet penetration allowed the theft of PC games by rebadging rpg's mmo's. DRM in the modern sense is literally stealing game files and functionality to remove application contorl from the user. The reason it's accepted is because the average consumer has no idea how technology works and how badly they are being fucked. They are too stupid to be market participants. The modern gaming market is a market for lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

saagarjha 7y ago

> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. Barring quantum technology, I don't think this is possible.

ben_w 7y ago
Even with quantum technology, there is such a thing as a “good enough” copy — my phone can record 4k/60fps, and while it would be a bit fiddly to set it up right to copy a video by filming a display, it can be done.

johannes1234321 7y ago

By sending it me you have to copy it, either onto a medium or network, I then have to copy it (from some medium/network at least into main memory and then copy either into video or audio memory which then do magic to highlight pixels or create audio waves) The copy is essence of what a computer does. A computer can essentially only do some math and copying. If you ask me to install some DRM software (or maybe even some hardware containing DRM stuff as in HDMI) you are asking me to run additional complex software where the only purpose is to restrict the functionality of my computer. I do that, since I like some movies and other things I get this way. However the software serves no purpose to me as the user. It is there to do Digital Restriction Management.

johannes1234321 7y ago
When Apple dropped DRM from their music downloads it was a great day. Suddenly one could download music for a competitive price legally from the internet and use in all the ways. Putting it on my mp3 player or my media server and create a backup, which I can trust to be usable even a few years. If a new audio standard comes by I even can re-encode and keep it. Meanwhile however we have Spotify and are back in the walled garden. Movie industry unfortunately went directly from physical media (with stupid DRM restrictions - my favorite one is that on a "legal" DVD player I am forced to watch a short sequence on how bad pirates are, on my "illegal" DRM free player I can skip that part) to streaming. Making sure I don't "own" a thing and making sure my computer runs software limiting what I can do with my computer.
- judge2020 7y ago
  In the legal sense, buying from iTunes is actually "buying", while you do just rent access (similar to a Gym membership) when you sign up for Apple Music or Spotify. I don't blame them for using DRM for music when the user needs a perpetual license to continue listening to it.
spookthesunset 7y ago
These kinds of reductionist arguments don't hold much water in the real world. Using arguments like this you can justify ransomware--after all ransomware is just CPU instructions running on a computer. That is what computers do is run instructions. Therefore, it is totally okay if the instructions happen to encrypt the entire contents of a disk and prevent the user from accessing it until they pay money. Here in meatspace, we have this notion of ownership and property rights. DRM is a mechanism to protect those rights. They may not be perfect, and they might not always make much business sense but that is their intent.
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  The ransomware doesn't do what I as owner of the computer want and nothing which serves me a purpose. The comparison doesn't work. If you look for a comparison: DRM is like a book publisher printing books on special paper which prevents copying and which can only be read in a specific angle so I can't easily take notes containing quotes from the book. All to protect those rights. (Edit: actually that example is missing a piece - you need special reading glasses to be able to read it, that's what DRM is doing on my machine) And yes - Napster was an issue for the music industry. Suddenly their content was there for free and easily accessible. But then there was Apple, giving music away DRM-free with even better usability and for an acceptable fee.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data. That's a nice way of phrasing it from the business point of view. From the customer point of view, it's degrading the product and artificially limiting the ways one can interact with it. It goes against the fundamental principle of general-purpose computing: as a computer owner, I get to tell what the computer can and cannot do with the data it has. DRM in its most general form exists as a way to (try to) make some data follow a different set of rules than the rules of the medium. It's an attempt of making bits have colour[0]. Since bits don't, and can't, have colour, you have to simulate this by changing the rules of the universe in which those bits are processed. It's practically impossible to do correctly, hence the product degradation that always accompanies DRM schemes. Adding insult to injury, DRM is usually employed to force a recurring revenue stream in a context where it fundamentally doesn't make sense. -- [0] - https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

monster99 7y ago

As someone who lived through the glorious 90's before internet penetration allowed the theft of PC games by rebadging rpg's mmo's. DRM in the modern sense is literally stealing game files and functionality to remove application contorl from the user. The reason it's accepted is because the average consumer has no idea how technology works and how badly they are being fucked. They are too stupid to be market participants. The modern gaming market is a market for lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons