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In A, Bob would have to be comfortable also sharing relevant information. True. B does invite some discussion. Bob could raise concerns that he has other deadl

by bena 7y ago

In A, Bob would have to be comfortable also sharing relevant information. True. B does invite some discussion. Bob could raise concerns that he has other deadlines or doesn't feel confident in meeting the deadline. C is the exact thing I'm talking about. It's infantile to a degree. Refusal isn't actually contemplated or considered. It's presenting a false choice to Bob. It's supposed to make Bob feel obligated to say yes because the request is so "nice". It's a perversion of the social contract. And that's where people with Autism fall into a trap. By not being bound by the social contract, they toss away all of the baggage and answer the question on its face. It wasn't a question. Why is "No" not socially acceptable? It's the answer to the question. Even now, you have to add that exclamation point to make it seem more forceful. Because you don't have an actual reason as to why a simple refusal isn't acceptable. Don't ask questions you don't really want the answer to. Don't disguise your intentions in a way to make it seem you're doing something you're not.

mlyle 7y ago
> C is the exact thing I'm talking about. It's infantile to a degree. Refusal isn't actually contemplated or considered. It's presenting a false choice to Bob. It's supposed to make Bob feel obligated to say yes because the request is so "nice". That's not what I mean by C. If I use the form in C, it's usually because I feel that I am providing the opportunity for interesting or growth work to Bob. "Well, that's not really the area I'd like to work in" is a fine answer and we'd discuss a little more, and then I'd go hand the fun stuff to someone who wants it. "No" would, well, rub me the wrong way a little bit. Here I'm offering something that I thought you'd prefer to other things, and you just tell me "no"? Come on, you owe me a little bit more consideration in return for me having considered you.
- bena 7y ago
  You're projecting a lot more onto the hypothetical just to make it seem like something it's not. What if it's not fun stuff? What if it's not really a request? This is a transaction. Step out of your feelings for a bit. Be a little more empathetic towards them. Don't take a simple answer so personally. Because when you get down to it, you're taking offense that Bob didn't genuflect enough to your taste.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Alternatively you are projecting a whole lot ;). I am saying how I have used it. Maybe it won't be fun stuff. That is why I ask. But the reason I do ask, is because I believe it may be and an opportunity for skill progression.
    - bena 7y ago
      Exactly what am I projecting? Tell me. You've taken the presented scenario and added things to try and bolster a point. Even now, you're trying to talk out of the side of your mouth to make it seem as if every "request" by you is actually an opportunity in disguise for the person you are assigning tasks to. Look man, sometimes, tasks just need to be done. And that's fine. You aren't fooling anyone by saying you're "giving them an opportunity to explore disposal management techniques in an office environment".
      - mlyle 7y ago
        > Even now, you're trying to talk out of the side of your mouth to make it seem as if every "request" by you is actually an opportunity in disguise for the person you are assigning tasks to. I'm saying the verbiage matters and conveys different things. There are times I just flat-out tell people to do things (rare). There are times I ask if someone would please do something (most). And there are times when I ask if someone would like to do something (rare). In all cases I'm trying to keep someone's total workload sane. Not only is this the way I use it, it appears to be the way other people use it, too... While obviously nothing is universal and I can't speak for everyone, the way I use it seems to be common. From other responses on this subthread: > If my manager said "would you like to x" I would assume he is trying to figure out who on the team to give x to, and wants to take our preferences into account. or > Is “would you like to?” really a firm request? I would definitely interpret that as a genuine question meant to gauge my desire. or > I'm a manager. If I made that request, I have left the door open for a refusal BUT I would expect an explanation ("No, I can't do X because of Y..."). or > In the US specifically, though, I’d take this as a genuine question. Any manager who didn’t get that is going to either learn to change their ways or will be perpetually frustrated. When I get something that I think would be fun/interesting/an opportunity for growth, I'm genuinely excited to be able to provide more interesting work and to be able to see subordinates grow. Usually these things are stuff that I hope to include as positive anecdotes in performance reviews. People can say "no", but I'd really appreciate an answer that conveys why they wouldn't like to so I can better understand. On the other hand: if someone begs off these tasks a lot, I'm not likely to keep offering them. And it will be difficult to promote someone who doesn't take these kinds of growth opportunities. > Look man, sometimes, tasks just need to be done. And that's fine. You aren't fooling anyone by saying you're "giving them an opportunity to explore disposal management techniques in an office environment". Again, I'd just nicely ask someone to do something in this case, not ask whether they'd like to. In any case, you're leaping to hostility fairly quickly. The accusation of "talking out of the side of [my] mouth" is unnecessary-- I'm telling you genuinely as I see it and as I try to do. Indeed, reading the people who say that they understand it as a firm command makes me want to use this verbiage less-- though I don't quite know how to start the kinds of conversations I want to have about these optional tasks without it.

by bena 7y ago

mlyle 7y ago

> C is the exact thing I'm talking about. It's infantile to a degree. Refusal isn't actually contemplated or considered. It's presenting a false choice to Bob. It's supposed to make Bob feel obligated to say yes because the request is so "nice". That's not what I mean by C. If I use the form in C, it's usually because I feel that I am providing the opportunity for interesting or growth work to Bob. "Well, that's not really the area I'd like to work in" is a fine answer and we'd discuss a little more, and then I'd go hand the fun stuff to someone who wants it. "No" would, well, rub me the wrong way a little bit. Here I'm offering something that I thought you'd prefer to other things, and you just tell me "no"? Come on, you owe me a little bit more consideration in return for me having considered you.

bena 7y ago
You're projecting a lot more onto the hypothetical just to make it seem like something it's not. What if it's not fun stuff? What if it's not really a request? This is a transaction. Step out of your feelings for a bit. Be a little more empathetic towards them. Don't take a simple answer so personally. Because when you get down to it, you're taking offense that Bob didn't genuflect enough to your taste.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Alternatively you are projecting a whole lot ;). I am saying how I have used it. Maybe it won't be fun stuff. That is why I ask. But the reason I do ask, is because I believe it may be and an opportunity for skill progression.
  - bena 7y ago
    Exactly what am I projecting? Tell me. You've taken the presented scenario and added things to try and bolster a point. Even now, you're trying to talk out of the side of your mouth to make it seem as if every "request" by you is actually an opportunity in disguise for the person you are assigning tasks to. Look man, sometimes, tasks just need to be done. And that's fine. You aren't fooling anyone by saying you're "giving them an opportunity to explore disposal management techniques in an office environment".
    - mlyle 7y ago
      > Even now, you're trying to talk out of the side of your mouth to make it seem as if every "request" by you is actually an opportunity in disguise for the person you are assigning tasks to. I'm saying the verbiage matters and conveys different things. There are times I just flat-out tell people to do things (rare). There are times I ask if someone would please do something (most). And there are times when I ask if someone would like to do something (rare). In all cases I'm trying to keep someone's total workload sane. Not only is this the way I use it, it appears to be the way other people use it, too... While obviously nothing is universal and I can't speak for everyone, the way I use it seems to be common. From other responses on this subthread: > If my manager said "would you like to x" I would assume he is trying to figure out who on the team to give x to, and wants to take our preferences into account. or > Is “would you like to?” really a firm request? I would definitely interpret that as a genuine question meant to gauge my desire. or > I'm a manager. If I made that request, I have left the door open for a refusal BUT I would expect an explanation ("No, I can't do X because of Y..."). or > In the US specifically, though, I’d take this as a genuine question. Any manager who didn’t get that is going to either learn to change their ways or will be perpetually frustrated. When I get something that I think would be fun/interesting/an opportunity for growth, I'm genuinely excited to be able to provide more interesting work and to be able to see subordinates grow. Usually these things are stuff that I hope to include as positive anecdotes in performance reviews. People can say "no", but I'd really appreciate an answer that conveys why they wouldn't like to so I can better understand. On the other hand: if someone begs off these tasks a lot, I'm not likely to keep offering them. And it will be difficult to promote someone who doesn't take these kinds of growth opportunities. > Look man, sometimes, tasks just need to be done. And that's fine. You aren't fooling anyone by saying you're "giving them an opportunity to explore disposal management techniques in an office environment". Again, I'd just nicely ask someone to do something in this case, not ask whether they'd like to. In any case, you're leaping to hostility fairly quickly. The accusation of "talking out of the side of [my] mouth" is unnecessary-- I'm telling you genuinely as I see it and as I try to do. Indeed, reading the people who say that they understand it as a firm command makes me want to use this verbiage less-- though I don't quite know how to start the kinds of conversations I want to have about these optional tasks without it.