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A romantic relationship is completely different. Sometimes a manager actually wants to find someone with the right combination of skill and enthusiasm to do so

A romantic relationship is completely different. Sometimes a manager actually wants to find someone with the right combination of skill and enthusiasm to do something. I would definitely take “would you like to?” as part of that process, with a “no” answer being completely reasonable and expected.

mlyle 7y ago
Would you really say just a blunt "no", or would you provide some context as to why? The manager has made a request for a task that needs completing in a gentle, nuanced way, and expects a gentle, nuanced response back. Even "Ehh. That's not the kind of thing I really enjoy doing".
- mikeash 7y ago
  Sure, I’d explain. But I have a vague sense of social skills. We can fault this employee for not knowing how to communicate, and that’s fair. But it’s a much bigger fault with the manager for not knowing how to deal with it. After all, of the two people involved in this exchange, one of them has “deal with other people” as their entire job description, while the other one has “deal with your manager” as one job requirement among many. Is it so hard to ask “why not?” if a simple “no” isn’t enough?
  - mlyle 7y ago
    It's not hard, and I think anyone reasonable would ask "why not?" But someone who does not understand the employee's autism might leave satisfied with why the employee would not like to complete the task, but assume that the initial blunt "no" was deliberate disrespect or disregard for the manager's request... and after a series of interactions like this, come to an erroneous conclusion that the employee desired to be uncooperative or doesn't care about showing any regard for our feelings. Understanding why helps us be empathetic and "not take it personally."
    - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
      > but assume that the initial blunt "no" was deliberate disrespect or disregard for the manager's request... and after a series of interactions like this, come to an erroneous conclusion that the employee desired to be uncooperative or doesn't care about showing any regard for our feelings. I'm probably on the spectrum the way I read that is it's the managers feelings that are the root of the problem. The manager learns to manage his/her feelings and the problem is resolved.
      - mikeash 7y ago
        Everything related to people is so much easier when you avoid taking anything personally. It’s almost never meant that way. When it is, you’re still better off not taking it that way. Someone was rude to you? So what? Just keep going. (Obviously, this doesn’t apply to things like targeted harassment. I’m talking about normal work discussions with troublesome replies.) Obviously, this is hard to actually do. But it’s good to try, and management should definitely do this, especially with their subordinates.
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      Eh? Maybe I'm slightly autistic myself, but I would definitely answer "no" to that question (but in a kind tone). I would consider "Do you want to do X?" a pretty rude kind of question, because it is not only requesting you do something, but also making you deal with the cognitive dissonance of saying you want to do something that you don't. It could also later come back to bite you with the person claiming "But you said you wanted to do that", even though you were just doing it because they were asking.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > Would you really say just a blunt "no", or would you provide some context as to why? This reminds me of some party of math students. One math student (clearly not on the spectrum!) X asked another math student Y: "Do you know whether Z will come?". Y answered: "Yes, he will come, but later.", to which X answered: "I didn't want to know whether Z will come, but only whether you have the knowledge whether he will come. If I wanted to know from you whether Z will come, I would have asked you 'Will Z also come?' and in the worst case gotten the answer from you that you don't know. But this is not the question that I asked. So, you should immediatelly have concluded that I am not interested whether Z will come, but only in whether you have the knowledge about that.". I could tell lots of such stories about such ultra-precise questions and expecting precise answers among math students. TLDR: Communication styles differ.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    It’s also fun to play these word games. One person’s “so rude!” can be another person’s “haha what a hilarious intentional misunderstanding.” Just another reason never to assume the worst and always ask for clarification if you don’t understand.
  - wruza 7y ago
    This thread reminded me of another (unrelated) story. https://otfjokes.com/profession-jokes/manager-jokes-with-engineer/ https://otfjokes.com/profession-jokes/manager-jokes-with-eng...
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
No, a romantic relationship isn't completely different. It's about communication styles. British corporate culture is particularly understated, and the US has understated moments. Other countries don't just tolerate blunt straightforwardness, they expect it. The same applies in relationships. Some couples are direct, others are indirect, some couples haven't worked this out and are still trying to communicate with conflicting styles - which always leads to complications and understandings. I know for a fact that people from Europe struggle with British understatement, because it's come up in a number of of independent conversations. It takes them a long time to work out what's being said because they take statements at face value, and that's completely wrong for the social context. E.g. See examples here: https://i2.wp.com/www.anglotopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Anglo-vs-EU.jpeg https://i2.wp.com/www.anglotopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2012... Those are not a joke at all. This is actually how many people communicate, both personally and at work. Of course there are other social frames. Class and context are big determinants, so generally the smaller the status/power difference and the higher the class, the more likely you are to experience understatement. The lower the class, the larger the status difference, and the closer you get to high-stakes outcomes over power and money, the more likely the communication will involve swearing, shouting, and possibly verbal abuse - feigned and genuine. But to work in the UK - and some US corporates - you have to be able to recognise the Understatement Frame and know how it operates, otherwise you'll be permanently confused about what people are saying.
- xtiansimon 7y ago
  I am fine with ‘communication style’. I understand social hierarchy, corporate culture. What I disagree with is comparing any workplace communications with romantic, family or love relationships. If you find this effective way to understand how to act at work then either your significant other is your better half, or your manager is taking advantage of you. Workplace communication should always communicate expectations, whether the language is direct or overcoded with social customs, takes 30 seconds to understand or 30 minutes in a meeting.
- onei 7y ago
  As a Brit, I'd say roughly half of those examples are accurate (and things I'd likely say). However, after a point some of them are things that give others license to misinterpret. If you're wanting to call someone insane, I find it's better to state it plainly with solid reasons rather than let them carry on oblivious.
RichardCA 7y ago
The core issue is that some people become completely flustered when confronted with guile. This happens in both business and personal, intimate situations. Guile is not always malicious. It's a normal part of some activities like negotiation. So in instead of "Would you like to" more like "I have a situation that you'd be perfect to handle if you can pull yourself away from what you're doing for a few hours".
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Here’s a real life example from grad school: Professor (who has already landed a position at another school and is negotiating a faculty position for his wife): “You’re going to have to work much harder than you have at any point up until now” Me (tired of the hot and cold and turning to face him): Ok, we’re going to be taking this one week at a time here, alright? Third professor in the room of Russian origin who is a co-advisor: ??? Unstated messages: Him: I’m checked out. Fuck this. Me: I gathered. Fuck you. Russian origin prof: WTF?

mlyle 7y ago

Would you really say just a blunt "no", or would you provide some context as to why? The manager has made a request for a task that needs completing in a gentle, nuanced way, and expects a gentle, nuanced response back. Even "Ehh. That's not the kind of thing I really enjoy doing".

mikeash 7y ago
Sure, I’d explain. But I have a vague sense of social skills. We can fault this employee for not knowing how to communicate, and that’s fair. But it’s a much bigger fault with the manager for not knowing how to deal with it. After all, of the two people involved in this exchange, one of them has “deal with other people” as their entire job description, while the other one has “deal with your manager” as one job requirement among many. Is it so hard to ask “why not?” if a simple “no” isn’t enough?
- mlyle 7y ago
  It's not hard, and I think anyone reasonable would ask "why not?" But someone who does not understand the employee's autism might leave satisfied with why the employee would not like to complete the task, but assume that the initial blunt "no" was deliberate disrespect or disregard for the manager's request... and after a series of interactions like this, come to an erroneous conclusion that the employee desired to be uncooperative or doesn't care about showing any regard for our feelings. Understanding why helps us be empathetic and "not take it personally."
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    > but assume that the initial blunt "no" was deliberate disrespect or disregard for the manager's request... and after a series of interactions like this, come to an erroneous conclusion that the employee desired to be uncooperative or doesn't care about showing any regard for our feelings. I'm probably on the spectrum the way I read that is it's the managers feelings that are the root of the problem. The manager learns to manage his/her feelings and the problem is resolved.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      Everything related to people is so much easier when you avoid taking anything personally. It’s almost never meant that way. When it is, you’re still better off not taking it that way. Someone was rude to you? So what? Just keep going. (Obviously, this doesn’t apply to things like targeted harassment. I’m talking about normal work discussions with troublesome replies.) Obviously, this is hard to actually do. But it’s good to try, and management should definitely do this, especially with their subordinates.
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    Eh? Maybe I'm slightly autistic myself, but I would definitely answer "no" to that question (but in a kind tone). I would consider "Do you want to do X?" a pretty rude kind of question, because it is not only requesting you do something, but also making you deal with the cognitive dissonance of saying you want to do something that you don't. It could also later come back to bite you with the person claiming "But you said you wanted to do that", even though you were just doing it because they were asking.
wolfgke 7y ago
> Would you really say just a blunt "no", or would you provide some context as to why? This reminds me of some party of math students. One math student (clearly not on the spectrum!) X asked another math student Y: "Do you know whether Z will come?". Y answered: "Yes, he will come, but later.", to which X answered: "I didn't want to know whether Z will come, but only whether you have the knowledge whether he will come. If I wanted to know from you whether Z will come, I would have asked you 'Will Z also come?' and in the worst case gotten the answer from you that you don't know. But this is not the question that I asked. So, you should immediatelly have concluded that I am not interested whether Z will come, but only in whether you have the knowledge about that.". I could tell lots of such stories about such ultra-precise questions and expecting precise answers among math students. TLDR: Communication styles differ.
- mikeash 7y ago
  It’s also fun to play these word games. One person’s “so rude!” can be another person’s “haha what a hilarious intentional misunderstanding.” Just another reason never to assume the worst and always ask for clarification if you don’t understand.
- wruza 7y ago
  This thread reminded me of another (unrelated) story. https://otfjokes.com/profession-jokes/manager-jokes-with-engineer/ https://otfjokes.com/profession-jokes/manager-jokes-with-eng...

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

No, a romantic relationship isn't completely different. It's about communication styles. British corporate culture is particularly understated, and the US has understated moments. Other countries don't just tolerate blunt straightforwardness, they expect it. The same applies in relationships. Some couples are direct, others are indirect, some couples haven't worked this out and are still trying to communicate with conflicting styles - which always leads to complications and understandings. I know for a fact that people from Europe struggle with British understatement, because it's come up in a number of of independent conversations. It takes them a long time to work out what's being said because they take statements at face value, and that's completely wrong for the social context. E.g. See examples here: https://i2.wp.com/www.anglotopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Anglo-vs-EU.jpeg https://i2.wp.com/www.anglotopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2012... Those are not a joke at all. This is actually how many people communicate, both personally and at work. Of course there are other social frames. Class and context are big determinants, so generally the smaller the status/power difference and the higher the class, the more likely you are to experience understatement. The lower the class, the larger the status difference, and the closer you get to high-stakes outcomes over power and money, the more likely the communication will involve swearing, shouting, and possibly verbal abuse - feigned and genuine. But to work in the UK - and some US corporates - you have to be able to recognise the Understatement Frame and know how it operates, otherwise you'll be permanently confused about what people are saying.

xtiansimon 7y ago
I am fine with ‘communication style’. I understand social hierarchy, corporate culture. What I disagree with is comparing any workplace communications with romantic, family or love relationships. If you find this effective way to understand how to act at work then either your significant other is your better half, or your manager is taking advantage of you. Workplace communication should always communicate expectations, whether the language is direct or overcoded with social customs, takes 30 seconds to understand or 30 minutes in a meeting.
onei 7y ago
As a Brit, I'd say roughly half of those examples are accurate (and things I'd likely say). However, after a point some of them are things that give others license to misinterpret. If you're wanting to call someone insane, I find it's better to state it plainly with solid reasons rather than let them carry on oblivious.

RichardCA 7y ago

The core issue is that some people become completely flustered when confronted with guile. This happens in both business and personal, intimate situations. Guile is not always malicious. It's a normal part of some activities like negotiation. So in instead of "Would you like to" more like "I have a situation that you'd be perfect to handle if you can pull yourself away from what you're doing for a few hours".

selimthegrim 7y ago
Here’s a real life example from grad school: Professor (who has already landed a position at another school and is negotiating a faculty position for his wife): “You’re going to have to work much harder than you have at any point up until now” Me (tired of the hot and cold and turning to face him): Ok, we’re going to be taking this one week at a time here, alright? Third professor in the room of Russian origin who is a co-advisor: ??? Unstated messages: Him: I’m checked out. Fuck this. Me: I gathered. Fuck you. Russian origin prof: WTF?