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The manager did not ask him to “please start X” > The manager had asked him if he would like to complete a task that needed doing, and the young man simply sai

The manager did not ask him to “please start X” > The manager had asked him if he would like to complete a task that needed doing, and the young man simply said, “No.”

mlyle 7y ago
I think you're tripping on the details of what I said -- and I'll edit-- rather than the actual point. The point is, these kinds of soft asks -- "Would you?" "Could you?" "Would you like to ...?" -- are understood as firm requests based on the structure of the working relationship between neurotypical people. If an autistic person takes them literally it seeds problems, especially since the request is made in a deferential way-- a rejection of a request in this firm seems more personal and uncooperative by virtue of the context of the manager having made it in a deferential fashion.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  It's the manager that creates the overhead. You can't unload work for ten men on an employee who has the strength of only three and on top of that expect that person to manage his manager properly.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    You're missing the point. Sometimes managing a "problem" employee becomes a majority of a manager's work because of both increased oversight needed for that employee's work and because of troublesome interpersonal interactions created by that employee. In turn the useful things that the manager can do-- a good manager provides useful support to his subordinates and buffering of harmful organizational requests-- are reduced significantly. This makes the "problem" employee more expensive than his peers.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      This makes the "problem" employee more expensive than his peers. This is generally why we have things like the ADA.
      - mlyle 7y ago
        ADA only requires reasonable accommodation; it does not require that you sacrifice the majority of another employee's effort to salvage a difficult one. It also requires the disability be disclosed in order to be accommodated. If the manager knows the employee has autism, what it is, and some reasonable adjustments to his management technique based on that, everyone is more likely to be successful.
- paulsutter 7y ago
  I’m not tripping on details, this is a crucial aspect working with neurodiverse people. One of my common challenges is the opposite: I ask a question intended literally and people “read into” what I ask and make assumptions about what i’m “getting at”. Then I need to follow up with “No, no, really, I am curious about (same question again)”. sometimes I need to ask 3-4 times. Conversations with people who are “on the spectrum” can be a lot more productive
  - mlyle 7y ago
    As originally phrased, though, I've gotten the blunt no to "could you please ...?" because the person felt they couldn't. So while I tripped up on using the exact text in the article, it aligns with my personal experience.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    > One of my common challenges is the opposite: I ask a question intended literally and people “read into” what I ask and make assumptions about what i’m “getting at”. If you keep this idea in mind while reading ~political conversations on forums, you will see that this behavior is extremely common. In many cases, both sides of a disagreement seem to be fighting with a strawman version of their conversational counterpart. To me, this is a widespread mental illness in Western societies, and I think it's possible that it may be getting worse, and (based on my experiences) might even be spreading into more traditionally fact-based discussions (the workplace, etc).
    - mlyle 7y ago
      At the same time, variants of this are useful. e.g. http://xyproblem.info/ http://xyproblem.info/ When I'm asked for advice or how to do something, very often the literal answer is "wrong." It's always useful to try and consider why someone would ask a question and try to keep that context in mind in answering, but one should not overreact and completely disregard the original question.
- peteradio 7y ago
  What is deferential about the "ask" when they actually mean "command"? It seems passive aggressive if anything.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    IMO: Used properly it's a true ask, but what's expected isn't a blunt "no". That is, if someone with authority meets their subordinate halfway, making a softer request in the form of a question, ... the other person is expected to in turn meet the manager halfway and not offer a firm rejection of the softer request.
- mikeash 7y ago
  Is “would you like to?” really a firm request? I would definitely interpret that as a genuine question meant to gauge my desire. “Would you?” and “could you?” are, of course, different.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    It can be a moderately firm request depending upon tone. The thing is, it's not really the "no" per se but the fact that the manager has asked in a gentle way and internally expects a gentle response with context. "I'd really prefer not to-- isn't XX supposed to handle that?" "I can't, because I just have too many other tasks" Internally, there's a bit of a "hot stove" reaction to "I asked gently and he just bluntly refused!"
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It really depends on the person making the request. I've absolutely worked with people for whom asking if you'd like to do something effectively meant they expected you to do it. This depends a lot on societal context too. Imagine in a deferential society like Japan, if your boss asks if you'd like to do something, the answer is yes. You don't say no to your boss. Plenty of people with those kinds of expectations are managers in American tech companies too.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      This stuff is definitely highly dependent on the local culture. In the US specifically, though, I’d take this as a genuine question. Any manager who didn’t get that is going to either learn to change their ways or will be perpetually frustrated.
  - alistairSH 7y ago
    I'm a manager. If I made that request, I have left the door open for a refusal BUT I would expect an explanation ("No, I can't do X because of Y..."). Also, if I received a firm "No" I wouldn't panic or read anything into it. I'd simply ask a follow up question or rephrase the request.

The manager did not ask him to “please start X” > The manager had asked him if he would like to complete a task that needed doing, and the young man simply said, “No.”

mlyle 7y ago

I think you're tripping on the details of what I said -- and I'll edit-- rather than the actual point. The point is, these kinds of soft asks -- "Would you?" "Could you?" "Would you like to ...?" -- are understood as firm requests based on the structure of the working relationship between neurotypical people. If an autistic person takes them literally it seeds problems, especially since the request is made in a deferential way-- a rejection of a request in this firm seems more personal and uncooperative by virtue of the context of the manager having made it in a deferential fashion.

HarryHirsch 7y ago
It's the manager that creates the overhead. You can't unload work for ten men on an employee who has the strength of only three and on top of that expect that person to manage his manager properly.
- mlyle 7y ago
  You're missing the point. Sometimes managing a "problem" employee becomes a majority of a manager's work because of both increased oversight needed for that employee's work and because of troublesome interpersonal interactions created by that employee. In turn the useful things that the manager can do-- a good manager provides useful support to his subordinates and buffering of harmful organizational requests-- are reduced significantly. This makes the "problem" employee more expensive than his peers.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    This makes the "problem" employee more expensive than his peers. This is generally why we have things like the ADA.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      ADA only requires reasonable accommodation; it does not require that you sacrifice the majority of another employee's effort to salvage a difficult one. It also requires the disability be disclosed in order to be accommodated. If the manager knows the employee has autism, what it is, and some reasonable adjustments to his management technique based on that, everyone is more likely to be successful.
paulsutter 7y ago
I’m not tripping on details, this is a crucial aspect working with neurodiverse people. One of my common challenges is the opposite: I ask a question intended literally and people “read into” what I ask and make assumptions about what i’m “getting at”. Then I need to follow up with “No, no, really, I am curious about (same question again)”. sometimes I need to ask 3-4 times. Conversations with people who are “on the spectrum” can be a lot more productive
- mlyle 7y ago
  As originally phrased, though, I've gotten the blunt no to "could you please ...?" because the person felt they couldn't. So while I tripped up on using the exact text in the article, it aligns with my personal experience.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > One of my common challenges is the opposite: I ask a question intended literally and people “read into” what I ask and make assumptions about what i’m “getting at”. If you keep this idea in mind while reading ~political conversations on forums, you will see that this behavior is extremely common. In many cases, both sides of a disagreement seem to be fighting with a strawman version of their conversational counterpart. To me, this is a widespread mental illness in Western societies, and I think it's possible that it may be getting worse, and (based on my experiences) might even be spreading into more traditionally fact-based discussions (the workplace, etc).
  - mlyle 7y ago
    At the same time, variants of this are useful. e.g. http://xyproblem.info/ http://xyproblem.info/ When I'm asked for advice or how to do something, very often the literal answer is "wrong." It's always useful to try and consider why someone would ask a question and try to keep that context in mind in answering, but one should not overreact and completely disregard the original question.
peteradio 7y ago
What is deferential about the "ask" when they actually mean "command"? It seems passive aggressive if anything.
- mlyle 7y ago
  IMO: Used properly it's a true ask, but what's expected isn't a blunt "no". That is, if someone with authority meets their subordinate halfway, making a softer request in the form of a question, ... the other person is expected to in turn meet the manager halfway and not offer a firm rejection of the softer request.
mikeash 7y ago
Is “would you like to?” really a firm request? I would definitely interpret that as a genuine question meant to gauge my desire. “Would you?” and “could you?” are, of course, different.
- mlyle 7y ago
  It can be a moderately firm request depending upon tone. The thing is, it's not really the "no" per se but the fact that the manager has asked in a gentle way and internally expects a gentle response with context. "I'd really prefer not to-- isn't XX supposed to handle that?" "I can't, because I just have too many other tasks" Internally, there's a bit of a "hot stove" reaction to "I asked gently and he just bluntly refused!"
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  It really depends on the person making the request. I've absolutely worked with people for whom asking if you'd like to do something effectively meant they expected you to do it. This depends a lot on societal context too. Imagine in a deferential society like Japan, if your boss asks if you'd like to do something, the answer is yes. You don't say no to your boss. Plenty of people with those kinds of expectations are managers in American tech companies too.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    This stuff is definitely highly dependent on the local culture. In the US specifically, though, I’d take this as a genuine question. Any manager who didn’t get that is going to either learn to change their ways or will be perpetually frustrated.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  I'm a manager. If I made that request, I have left the door open for a refusal BUT I would expect an explanation ("No, I can't do X because of Y..."). Also, if I received a firm "No" I wouldn't panic or read anything into it. I'd simply ask a follow up question or rephrase the request.