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I’ve struggled with social interactions my whole life. Even now, at 45, they never feel natural or comfortable, and I dread them - but I figured long ago that

I’ve struggled with social interactions my whole life. Even now, at 45, they never feel natural or comfortable, and I dread them - but I figured long ago that if I’m smart enough to solve differential equations, program in assembler and speak Japanese, I’m also smart enough to figure out social interactions. So I just watch what other people do, and then do that. It always feels forced and artificial, but either nobody notices or they humor me.

hello_friendos 7y ago
I really feel this comment. I thought I was the only person that felt this way.
noobiemcfoob 7y ago
That's my secret, Cap. I'm always faking it. /Just like everyone else. Seriously, some of the less intrusive locations on the spectrum just strike me as being particularly vocal about logical inconsistencies to one's own detriment.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > Just like everyone else. You think? It seems to me that there are a lot of people (more than the other way around) who go out of their way to seek out social interactions: they go out and have lunch with somebody else just to talk to them, or they chat with a coworker by the coffee machine instead of getting back to their desk as fast as they can, or they strike up a conversation with the barista at Starbucks instead of just trying to say their order without screwing it up… these don’t seem like people who are just faking it to the best of their ability. Or maybe they’re just practicing more studiously than I am?
  - noobiemcfoob 7y ago
    I don't think it's more. I'd happily argue 80% of people keep to themselves 80% of the time, but those 20% gaps are highly visible in contrast. But to the point: What's the socialite's internal monologue while being all chatty? What's the overlap between what they think is happening (e.g. what the script is, what the norms are) and what third parties would see? I see social people who obviously feel connected to the group, but how much of that is just eating up their own internal version of what they see happening while ignoring the smell of any mentally suppressed interactions?
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    It's just like any other skill, you just practise it. There was a time when I couldn't integrate some problems, and then there was a time where I could integrate e^ax times sin (bx) automatically without even thinking about the process. I just practised by observing and now everyone thinks I'm good at interaction.
distantaidenn 7y ago
I agree with this completely. I self-diagnosed Aspergers, approached my doctor and was subsequently diagnosed with ADHD (there is a huge overlap). Growing up, I just could not figure out how people "worked". My parents thought I was lonely all the time; however, my inner world was (and still is), so rich that it's difficult to express to people. Thus, I made it a conscious effort to study people as I would any of my other subjects. Now, unless I tell people -- they would have no idea. Everything I do in social interactions, in order to fit in, is a learned behavior that I didn't pick up until my university years. I'm in my 30s now and still learning. We joke about it, but my girlfriend regularly tells me that I have "no emotions." Truth is, I just react differently than what's expected. Even this very day, she asked me a question about love, and I sat there and thought for a few seconds and tried to give her a logical answer. Of course, I was playfully scolded for not answering right away, but this is par the course for how I see the world. It's difficult to know when people just want a canned response, or when they want an actual answer.
- orblivion 7y ago
  Just curious - do you (or anyone else reading) ever feel resentful that you're the one who's expected to act in a way that makes no sense to you, instead of the other way around? I'm not sure if I'm on the same spectrum as you, but I'm definitely peculiar in some ways (OCD at least). After enough years of doing what makes sense to me and not fitting in as a result, I can't help but feel resentful at times at the idea that I'm the one with the problem.
  - jaggederest 7y ago
    Absolutely, part of my journey is to start asking for other people to come halfway. I bend over backwards to try to think about other people and be considerate and thoughtful because it doesn't come automatically, but it seems like a lot of neurotypical folks are unwilling or unable to do the same in reverse. Frankly I've been a lot happier since I stopped being quite so unobtrusive and easy to get along with.
  - onecomment 7y ago
    I do get annoyed at this, buy only sometimes and it passes fast... Similar to others commenting here I think i have learned social skills and human behavior in the same way i have learned programming etc. and as a result i can articulate and logically process peoples behaviors better than many (most?) people. I score high in empathy / feeling metrics in tests at work and I am one of the first people that people come to with personal problems relating to dealing with people (all kinds of problems really), but from my perspective its all through careful analysis of whats going on around me since a very early age, nothing intuitive about it. Mostly it involves very carefully thinking things though from the starting point of : whatever that person is doing must appear logical to them. (and i really really mean MUST - I have never met an illogical person) In any case.. the reason I mostly don't get annoyed is because: If you are feeling this way then that means you have more awareness of what is going on than the other person, and if you are in a position of considering how to act (not just reacting) then that means you are in a position of strength with the power to improve the situation. So then it becomes like when i am helping someone move furniture or whatever and i happen to be twice their size.. i may end up expending more energy, putting in more effort, but i really would not have it any other way.
bitwize 7y ago
You're going up against people who have considerable brain processing power (not even CPU power, more like GPU power -- 99% of it below the threshold of consciousness) hardwired from birth to decipher social cues and generate appropriate responses, and are far more practiced at such than you. This isn't something you can just "get the hang of". You will always be n00b-tier amongst neurotypicals, who are playing quite a different game. They can integrate facial microexpressions, micro-gestures, subtle changes in body posture and tone of voice of a room full of people and synchronize their own behavior and voice to shape the group dynamic while you're still figuring out whether a particular person's laugh was one of scorn or approval. That's why it feels forced and fake -- you're involving active processing from your CPU in a loop that for most is damn near reflexive. And yes -- they notice, but it probably doesn't pass their "geez, look at that weirdo" threshold, so you're good. And an original thought or two will endear you to them. The good news is you have considerable brain circuitry freed up to apply to things that interest you -- like assembly programming and learning Japanese. Suitably trained, this circuitry can be quite powerful. And you can even spot patterns in people's social behavior that others may miss. Because allistics are hardwired for sociality, their consciousness itself is shaped by social cues to a much greater extent. Increased resistance to the effects of things like advertising is damn near a superpower in its own right in today's world. That said, being Japanese would be extraordinarily difficult for the likes of you. If you thought Western society was tough, wait till you try participating in a society where social harmony and group consensus are the bedrock of the entire friggin' nation. I do not envy Japanese people on the spectrum even a wee tiny bit.
- kokey 7y ago
  I guess those Japanese people on the spectrum often ends up being referred to as Otaku.
- wst_ 7y ago
  I beg to disagree. About Japanese society and cooping strategies, that is. I let myself to generalize a bit and say that most of the people on the spectrum feels well in more or less rigid, closed set of social rules. The more logical the better. In reality, a lot of awkwardness comes from the fact that daily human to human behavioral protocol is very open. Anything may happen and it feels overwhelming just to think about all the possibilities a conversation may leads to. Japanese society is normalized to the point that the citizens may feel upset just by the fact that they are in certain situation and there is no how-to around. People are following social rules everywhere. Japanese society is strictly formalized and everyone is expected to behave properly in given situation. You go to restaurant and you don't have to wonder how much should you tip to the waiter. You don't tip. Simple as that - that's the rule. They've made a lot practical improvements to make the daily struggle as easy as possible. They are always avoiding conflict. When someone step on someone's shoe in metro they say "sorry" (both of them!) and go on. There is no ambiguity in your daily life. More of it. Being socially awkward is perfectly acceptable or at least tolerated. I am talking about bigger cities, of course. You can walk the streets of Shibuya in a diving suit and no one would say a word. You can refrain from talking to people, too. They are, almost naively, honest and even Tokyo - 38M people, 13M in the city - is so safe, that you can leave your bag to reserve a table in the crowded fast food and go to the counter to make an order. No one will take it. No one will abuse you and you don't have a reason to feel vulnerable. If there's a rule, so it is. People are obeying the law and keeping to the rules. This is extremely safe environment for people on the spectrum. One thing that is usually omitted in any analysis is the weather. Seems non important. But if we consider that ASD is commonly accompanied by depression and/or anxiety I'm willing to weight a weather as a factor. The thing is that winter is almost non existent in Tokyo and to the south. But, what is more important, there is sunny all year long. All year long you have something in the air that will brighten up your day. Just imagine that - plum trees are blooming in February. November and full sun so you can wear t-shirt and hoodie? Go ahead, at least in Tokyo. Much easier to keep in good shape then, say, in London when most days are gloomy. Of course no country's perfect. What I've said above is the norm, but there are always some exceptions. Big cities are loud and bright. Sensory issues may be problematic. Some rules are less logical that it seems. Japanese language is not direct and sometimes people are expected to notice when should they react. I do agree that Japan is not country for everyone but as long as ASD goes I'd rather say it is better suited for people on the spectrum that we may suspect. Especially for foreigners as we are naturally allowed to make mistakes.
steve_adams_86 7y ago
I've come to believe the interactions mostly feel genuine to others (and the intent, need, and desire for positive communication and interaction truly is genuine), and sure there are slip ups but that's typical for most people... I worry much less about that performance as I age. What I struggle with now is the implications to others who I have more intimate relationships with. Having such a cerebral social presence and experience, even if you are very kind in intention and action, causes people close to you to feel as though perhaps it isn't genuine or done with any feeling. It makes you seem less emotionally invested, less attached, etc. At least that's been my experience. I haven't found a way to break through that and have lost relationships over it. But you probably are smart enough to socialize just fine – I think the harder thing to crack is how far that can extend into your closer relationships.

hello_friendos 7y ago

I really feel this comment. I thought I was the only person that felt this way.

noobiemcfoob 7y ago

That's my secret, Cap. I'm always faking it. /Just like everyone else. Seriously, some of the less intrusive locations on the spectrum just strike me as being particularly vocal about logical inconsistencies to one's own detriment.

commandlinefan 7y ago
> Just like everyone else. You think? It seems to me that there are a lot of people (more than the other way around) who go out of their way to seek out social interactions: they go out and have lunch with somebody else just to talk to them, or they chat with a coworker by the coffee machine instead of getting back to their desk as fast as they can, or they strike up a conversation with the barista at Starbucks instead of just trying to say their order without screwing it up… these don’t seem like people who are just faking it to the best of their ability. Or maybe they’re just practicing more studiously than I am?
- noobiemcfoob 7y ago
  I don't think it's more. I'd happily argue 80% of people keep to themselves 80% of the time, but those 20% gaps are highly visible in contrast. But to the point: What's the socialite's internal monologue while being all chatty? What's the overlap between what they think is happening (e.g. what the script is, what the norms are) and what third parties would see? I see social people who obviously feel connected to the group, but how much of that is just eating up their own internal version of what they see happening while ignoring the smell of any mentally suppressed interactions?
- scarejunba 7y ago
  It's just like any other skill, you just practise it. There was a time when I couldn't integrate some problems, and then there was a time where I could integrate e^ax times sin (bx) automatically without even thinking about the process. I just practised by observing and now everyone thinks I'm good at interaction.

distantaidenn 7y ago

I agree with this completely. I self-diagnosed Aspergers, approached my doctor and was subsequently diagnosed with ADHD (there is a huge overlap). Growing up, I just could not figure out how people "worked". My parents thought I was lonely all the time; however, my inner world was (and still is), so rich that it's difficult to express to people. Thus, I made it a conscious effort to study people as I would any of my other subjects. Now, unless I tell people -- they would have no idea. Everything I do in social interactions, in order to fit in, is a learned behavior that I didn't pick up until my university years. I'm in my 30s now and still learning. We joke about it, but my girlfriend regularly tells me that I have "no emotions." Truth is, I just react differently than what's expected. Even this very day, she asked me a question about love, and I sat there and thought for a few seconds and tried to give her a logical answer. Of course, I was playfully scolded for not answering right away, but this is par the course for how I see the world. It's difficult to know when people just want a canned response, or when they want an actual answer.

orblivion 7y ago
Just curious - do you (or anyone else reading) ever feel resentful that you're the one who's expected to act in a way that makes no sense to you, instead of the other way around? I'm not sure if I'm on the same spectrum as you, but I'm definitely peculiar in some ways (OCD at least). After enough years of doing what makes sense to me and not fitting in as a result, I can't help but feel resentful at times at the idea that I'm the one with the problem.
- jaggederest 7y ago
  Absolutely, part of my journey is to start asking for other people to come halfway. I bend over backwards to try to think about other people and be considerate and thoughtful because it doesn't come automatically, but it seems like a lot of neurotypical folks are unwilling or unable to do the same in reverse. Frankly I've been a lot happier since I stopped being quite so unobtrusive and easy to get along with.
- onecomment 7y ago
  I do get annoyed at this, buy only sometimes and it passes fast... Similar to others commenting here I think i have learned social skills and human behavior in the same way i have learned programming etc. and as a result i can articulate and logically process peoples behaviors better than many (most?) people. I score high in empathy / feeling metrics in tests at work and I am one of the first people that people come to with personal problems relating to dealing with people (all kinds of problems really), but from my perspective its all through careful analysis of whats going on around me since a very early age, nothing intuitive about it. Mostly it involves very carefully thinking things though from the starting point of : whatever that person is doing must appear logical to them. (and i really really mean MUST - I have never met an illogical person) In any case.. the reason I mostly don't get annoyed is because: If you are feeling this way then that means you have more awareness of what is going on than the other person, and if you are in a position of considering how to act (not just reacting) then that means you are in a position of strength with the power to improve the situation. So then it becomes like when i am helping someone move furniture or whatever and i happen to be twice their size.. i may end up expending more energy, putting in more effort, but i really would not have it any other way.

bitwize 7y ago

You're going up against people who have considerable brain processing power (not even CPU power, more like GPU power -- 99% of it below the threshold of consciousness) hardwired from birth to decipher social cues and generate appropriate responses, and are far more practiced at such than you. This isn't something you can just "get the hang of". You will always be n00b-tier amongst neurotypicals, who are playing quite a different game. They can integrate facial microexpressions, micro-gestures, subtle changes in body posture and tone of voice of a room full of people and synchronize their own behavior and voice to shape the group dynamic while you're still figuring out whether a particular person's laugh was one of scorn or approval. That's why it feels forced and fake -- you're involving active processing from your CPU in a loop that for most is damn near reflexive. And yes -- they notice, but it probably doesn't pass their "geez, look at that weirdo" threshold, so you're good. And an original thought or two will endear you to them. The good news is you have considerable brain circuitry freed up to apply to things that interest you -- like assembly programming and learning Japanese. Suitably trained, this circuitry can be quite powerful. And you can even spot patterns in people's social behavior that others may miss. Because allistics are hardwired for sociality, their consciousness itself is shaped by social cues to a much greater extent. Increased resistance to the effects of things like advertising is damn near a superpower in its own right in today's world. That said, being Japanese would be extraordinarily difficult for the likes of you. If you thought Western society was tough, wait till you try participating in a society where social harmony and group consensus are the bedrock of the entire friggin' nation. I do not envy Japanese people on the spectrum even a wee tiny bit.

kokey 7y ago
I guess those Japanese people on the spectrum often ends up being referred to as Otaku.
wst_ 7y ago
I beg to disagree. About Japanese society and cooping strategies, that is. I let myself to generalize a bit and say that most of the people on the spectrum feels well in more or less rigid, closed set of social rules. The more logical the better. In reality, a lot of awkwardness comes from the fact that daily human to human behavioral protocol is very open. Anything may happen and it feels overwhelming just to think about all the possibilities a conversation may leads to. Japanese society is normalized to the point that the citizens may feel upset just by the fact that they are in certain situation and there is no how-to around. People are following social rules everywhere. Japanese society is strictly formalized and everyone is expected to behave properly in given situation. You go to restaurant and you don't have to wonder how much should you tip to the waiter. You don't tip. Simple as that - that's the rule. They've made a lot practical improvements to make the daily struggle as easy as possible. They are always avoiding conflict. When someone step on someone's shoe in metro they say "sorry" (both of them!) and go on. There is no ambiguity in your daily life. More of it. Being socially awkward is perfectly acceptable or at least tolerated. I am talking about bigger cities, of course. You can walk the streets of Shibuya in a diving suit and no one would say a word. You can refrain from talking to people, too. They are, almost naively, honest and even Tokyo - 38M people, 13M in the city - is so safe, that you can leave your bag to reserve a table in the crowded fast food and go to the counter to make an order. No one will take it. No one will abuse you and you don't have a reason to feel vulnerable. If there's a rule, so it is. People are obeying the law and keeping to the rules. This is extremely safe environment for people on the spectrum. One thing that is usually omitted in any analysis is the weather. Seems non important. But if we consider that ASD is commonly accompanied by depression and/or anxiety I'm willing to weight a weather as a factor. The thing is that winter is almost non existent in Tokyo and to the south. But, what is more important, there is sunny all year long. All year long you have something in the air that will brighten up your day. Just imagine that - plum trees are blooming in February. November and full sun so you can wear t-shirt and hoodie? Go ahead, at least in Tokyo. Much easier to keep in good shape then, say, in London when most days are gloomy. Of course no country's perfect. What I've said above is the norm, but there are always some exceptions. Big cities are loud and bright. Sensory issues may be problematic. Some rules are less logical that it seems. Japanese language is not direct and sometimes people are expected to notice when should they react. I do agree that Japan is not country for everyone but as long as ASD goes I'd rather say it is better suited for people on the spectrum that we may suspect. Especially for foreigners as we are naturally allowed to make mistakes.

steve_adams_86 7y ago

I've come to believe the interactions mostly feel genuine to others (and the intent, need, and desire for positive communication and interaction truly is genuine), and sure there are slip ups but that's typical for most people... I worry much less about that performance as I age. What I struggle with now is the implications to others who I have more intimate relationships with. Having such a cerebral social presence and experience, even if you are very kind in intention and action, causes people close to you to feel as though perhaps it isn't genuine or done with any feeling. It makes you seem less emotionally invested, less attached, etc. At least that's been my experience. I haven't found a way to break through that and have lost relationships over it. But you probably are smart enough to socialize just fine – I think the harder thing to crack is how far that can extend into your closer relationships.