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I think I'd go even further than that - most people are bad managers and those who are good managers usually have had a fair amount of coaching and mentoring by

I think I'd go even further than that - most people are bad managers and those who are good managers usually have had a fair amount of coaching and mentoring by other good managers. Edit: I should add training to that, while I wouldn't claim to be a good manager I did have some 1-on-1 training that did make me a less bad manager (being videoed in meetings and my interactions with people analysed).

BurningFrog 7y ago
> most people are bad managers A lot of people also have a strong anti manager bias. They're predisposed to hate any manager they have, unless proven otherwise.
- ergothus 7y ago
  Sure, but how many managers are actually trained to do what they do? There's this strange expectation that everyone somehow knows how to be a good manager, when in truth, most of us know (some of) what a manager is supposed to DO, but have only what we've personally experienced to guide us on HOW to do it. And what we've seen is only a sliver of the process - we've likely only seen the managing of others in public, and the managing of ourselves in private. Ee can, at best, know from experience how to manage someone that is just like ourselves, and have an idea of what to say in public to people not like ourselves, but not what to say to them in private. And that's the best case, assuming we've had good managers (and thus have good examples to draw from). More likely, we've seen tolerable managers, plus plenty of bad ones. To your point, how do we even recognize good management when we've seen it? How do we know what to emulate and what to avoid? We're the parents that say "well my parents beat me and I turned out just fine, so....". Management is a skill (or collection of skills) It's not a skillset that most jobs actually train, nor is it one that they do a good job of recognizing. Most of the jobs people have growing up (and beyond) reward managers that push for short-term gains over such things like "morale" or "communication" - these are the managers that are "successful" for the vast majority of experience. Just look at how many places have techies shift into management as a career development path, but don't do anything to train them or say that people are managed any differently than code. There are plenty of reasons for people to be biased against the person (their manager) that tells them what they don't want to hear (such as "take on this extra work" or "your time off request is denied" or "don't implement your idea"), there's also plenty of reasons to expect that most managers legitimately ARE poor managers.
siggen 7y ago
This. I would also like to add that a lot of folks are bad managers because they observed and learned from bad managers.
- aswanson 7y ago
  My 1st manager was a tool, was pretty degrading with language toward me, etc. I realize now it was partially my fault, and also the guy just coded all day and wasnt necessarily all that bad of a guy, he just was horrible at communication and managing someone coming out of school with minimal real world dev experience.
numakerg 7y ago
I also think people underestimate the amount of knowledge and experience it takes to become a good manager (or any other talent for that matter). In discussions I often hear people claim that they could take on a leadership role and succeed simply because they are good in social settings and "have a way with others". I've seen a few of these people try and fail because they didn't think about the other components of management such as conflict resolution, delegation, etc. I've only taken on trivial leadership roles, so my default assumption is that I am not a good manager. For most other skills I can practice and gain proficiency on my own, but with management, trial and error comes at the cost of others' time. I assume there is some training you can take to give you basic skills, but I think real experience has to be gained through a gradual expansion of responsibilities, which requires mentorship and an environment that supports that kind of process.
dikdikvandik 7y ago
What do you think makes a good manager vs a bad one?
- arethuza 7y ago
  To put it one way: "You can either be a shit funnel or a shit umbrella"
clairity 7y ago
i would add that managers are coaches, not players, in that their work output is generally not meant to produce product (in the larger sense of work product, not just the company's offering) but rather make the producers themselves better. so one easy way to be (viewed as) a bad manager is to forget that your focus should be people, not product. it is absolutely your job as a manager to ask about and know the motivations and constraints of those you manage, including probing no's like that.

BurningFrog 7y ago

> most people are bad managers A lot of people also have a strong anti manager bias. They're predisposed to hate any manager they have, unless proven otherwise.

ergothus 7y ago
Sure, but how many managers are actually trained to do what they do? There's this strange expectation that everyone somehow knows how to be a good manager, when in truth, most of us know (some of) what a manager is supposed to DO, but have only what we've personally experienced to guide us on HOW to do it. And what we've seen is only a sliver of the process - we've likely only seen the managing of others in public, and the managing of ourselves in private. Ee can, at best, know from experience how to manage someone that is just like ourselves, and have an idea of what to say in public to people not like ourselves, but not what to say to them in private. And that's the best case, assuming we've had good managers (and thus have good examples to draw from). More likely, we've seen tolerable managers, plus plenty of bad ones. To your point, how do we even recognize good management when we've seen it? How do we know what to emulate and what to avoid? We're the parents that say "well my parents beat me and I turned out just fine, so....". Management is a skill (or collection of skills) It's not a skillset that most jobs actually train, nor is it one that they do a good job of recognizing. Most of the jobs people have growing up (and beyond) reward managers that push for short-term gains over such things like "morale" or "communication" - these are the managers that are "successful" for the vast majority of experience. Just look at how many places have techies shift into management as a career development path, but don't do anything to train them or say that people are managed any differently than code. There are plenty of reasons for people to be biased against the person (their manager) that tells them what they don't want to hear (such as "take on this extra work" or "your time off request is denied" or "don't implement your idea"), there's also plenty of reasons to expect that most managers legitimately ARE poor managers.

siggen 7y ago

This. I would also like to add that a lot of folks are bad managers because they observed and learned from bad managers.

aswanson 7y ago
My 1st manager was a tool, was pretty degrading with language toward me, etc. I realize now it was partially my fault, and also the guy just coded all day and wasnt necessarily all that bad of a guy, he just was horrible at communication and managing someone coming out of school with minimal real world dev experience.

numakerg 7y ago

I also think people underestimate the amount of knowledge and experience it takes to become a good manager (or any other talent for that matter). In discussions I often hear people claim that they could take on a leadership role and succeed simply because they are good in social settings and "have a way with others". I've seen a few of these people try and fail because they didn't think about the other components of management such as conflict resolution, delegation, etc. I've only taken on trivial leadership roles, so my default assumption is that I am not a good manager. For most other skills I can practice and gain proficiency on my own, but with management, trial and error comes at the cost of others' time. I assume there is some training you can take to give you basic skills, but I think real experience has to be gained through a gradual expansion of responsibilities, which requires mentorship and an environment that supports that kind of process.

dikdikvandik 7y ago

What do you think makes a good manager vs a bad one?

arethuza 7y ago
To put it one way: "You can either be a shit funnel or a shit umbrella"

clairity 7y ago

i would add that managers are coaches, not players, in that their work output is generally not meant to produce product (in the larger sense of work product, not just the company's offering) but rather make the producers themselves better. so one easy way to be (viewed as) a bad manager is to forget that your focus should be people, not product. it is absolutely your job as a manager to ask about and know the motivations and constraints of those you manage, including probing no's like that.