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From the article: "People with Asperger’s syndrome, the term still commonly used for one of the most well-known forms of autism spectrum disorder, bring serious

From the article: "People with Asperger’s syndrome, the term still commonly used for one of the most well-known forms of autism spectrum disorder, bring serious advantages to the financial markets: extreme focus, a facility with numbers, a willingness to consider unpopular opinions, a strong sense of logic, and an intense belief in fairness and justice. But, like other autistic employees, they often feel alienated from their managers, colleagues, and clients. Sometimes they simply get fired." I wonder if these people were always fired, or has something in the business changed that made immoderate instances of these traits a liability? Tech has changed in the last decade, to where I don't think someone "on the spectrum," could survive very long in a west coast company without being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes. Using Pfeffer's triad of "Performance, Credentials, Relationships," businesses seem to evolve to where success becomes weighted to the latter two instead of purely on performance. Arbitrage, startups, and other asymmetric, high risk plays could seem to benefit from high performing people on the spectrum, where people in later stage businesses that have more linear growth or stability benefit from the latter two. To me, the trouble with the most functional edge of the "spectum," view as presented is it seems to both normalize groupthink and some of the more shameful characteristics of political operators, and pathologizes clear reasoning and principle. I get that expecting others to be accountable to my or any other general ethical rules is to choose suffering, but the tendency to pseudo-medicalize people as "on the spectrum," who lose politically feels ominous.

Spooky23 7y ago
I agree with you, and I get the impression that the spectrum phenomena in business is a reflection of the tyranny and dysfunction of what is deemed to be normal and how to behave. Decades of leaning out organizations has created an expectation of workers working multiple jobs, and I think that process purged many people who either by personality or diagnosis are in the "spectrum" bucket. People are a suited to detailed technical work shouldn't be evaluated like salesmen. Yet the traditional interview process that is described in the article is just that. IMO, the idealized "normal" corporate employee who is panting like a dog to do a trick and shit out a powerpoint is more problematic.
commandlinefan 7y ago
I’ve struggled with social interactions my whole life. Even now, at 45, they never feel natural or comfortable, and I dread them - but I figured long ago that if I’m smart enough to solve differential equations, program in assembler and speak Japanese, I’m also smart enough to figure out social interactions. So I just watch what other people do, and then do that. It always feels forced and artificial, but either nobody notices or they humor me.
- hello_friendos 7y ago
  I really feel this comment. I thought I was the only person that felt this way.
- noobiemcfoob 7y ago
  That's my secret, Cap. I'm always faking it. /Just like everyone else. Seriously, some of the less intrusive locations on the spectrum just strike me as being particularly vocal about logical inconsistencies to one's own detriment.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    > Just like everyone else. You think? It seems to me that there are a lot of people (more than the other way around) who go out of their way to seek out social interactions: they go out and have lunch with somebody else just to talk to them, or they chat with a coworker by the coffee machine instead of getting back to their desk as fast as they can, or they strike up a conversation with the barista at Starbucks instead of just trying to say their order without screwing it up… these don’t seem like people who are just faking it to the best of their ability. Or maybe they’re just practicing more studiously than I am?
    - noobiemcfoob 7y ago
      I don't think it's more. I'd happily argue 80% of people keep to themselves 80% of the time, but those 20% gaps are highly visible in contrast. But to the point: What's the socialite's internal monologue while being all chatty? What's the overlap between what they think is happening (e.g. what the script is, what the norms are) and what third parties would see? I see social people who obviously feel connected to the group, but how much of that is just eating up their own internal version of what they see happening while ignoring the smell of any mentally suppressed interactions?
john_moscow 7y ago
>I wonder if these people were always fired, or has something in the business changed that made immoderate instances of these traits a liability. Economic cycle. As long as the main product of a typical west coast company remains the feeling of the future potential it sells to the investors, feelers are mostly an asset and thinkers are a mainly liability.
gwbas1c 7y ago
> Arbitrage, startups, and other asymmetric, high risk plays could seem to benefit from high performing people on the spectrum One person who I've met who is on the spectrum isn't very smart, but is able to talk in a way that some people think he's smart. (IE, this person believed that someone invented a free energy machine.) He can only work in situations where he has intense coaching, so he stays on task. In another situation, when I was working for a startup interviewing candidates; we had a candidate come in who was probably on the spectrum. I don't remember if he was a capable programmer; but what I remember was that he was extremely hard to work with through the interview. I suspected that he'd need 60-120 minutes of someone's undivided attention a day just to keep on task. Furthermore, based on how he acted in the interview, I suspected that all collaborative design work would be high friction. Everyone who interviewed him said no. If we were a larger corporation we could figure out how to give him the attention and coaching he needed.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  > IE, this person believed that someone invented a free energy machine. That's not false. Many people have invented free energy machines. A /working/ free energy machine, though...that's a different thing.
icelancer 7y ago
>> I wonder if these people were always fired, or has something in the business changed that made immoderate instances of these traits a liability? This is pretty much spot on. People want the upside of someone who is on the spectrum disorder but suddenly can't handle the downside of it. A person is more than their upside.
changoplatanero 7y ago
A concrete example from this week is Dan Povey, one of the greatest speech recognition engineers in the world, who was fired from JHU this week.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  And fired under exactly the kind of circumstances you'd expect someone on the spectrum to accidentally wander into without understanding the gravity of.
  - extra88 7y ago
    > White males in this environment seem to be expected to constantly atone for their existence by telegraphing their exclusive concern for every demographic group but their own, like a neutered puppy-dog or some Justin Trudeau man-child. [0] His statement makes it clear he knew what he was getting into. This phrase is indicative of an asshole, not of being "on the spectrum." [0] http://danielpovey.com/leaving.html http://danielpovey.com/leaving.html
    - repolfx 7y ago
      Having read the whole thing I don't see what makes him an asshole. He feels he got fired due to allegations of things he didn't do, because he is (a) white and (b) a man and (c) not apologising for that. And of course, now his enemies are getting him fired from as many jobs as they can. This is why I just ignore claims of people being on the spectrum. It comes across as just an insult deployed against people for ideological reasons. The guy stood up to student "protests" that were disrupting the university, a problem that seems endemic these days, and of course got fired because university administrators seem to be as extremist as the student population. The guy got angry and wrote a public explanation. Given the history of such firings in academia I'm sure he's correct. Nothing about that is indicative of a developmental or mental disorder, which is - let us recall - what Asperger's and autism are. After all, by this standard Martin Luther King and many others who made sacrifices for their beliefs would have been considered deeply autistic.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
> Tech has changed in the last decade, to where I don't think someone "on the spectrum," could survive very long in a west coast company without being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes. What do you mean by "being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes"? In my opinion their employment would be mostly limited by them unknowingly saying the kind of things that get you reported to HR and made to do some mandatory sensitivity training. East coast tech doesn't seem to care so much about that kind of thing (yet).
mistermann 7y ago
> Tech has changed in the last decade, to where I don't think someone "on the spectrum," could survive very long in a west coast company without being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes > Using Pfeffer's triad of "Performance, Credentials, Relationships," businesses seem to evolve to where success becomes weighted to the latter two instead of purely on performance. Arbitrage, startups, and other asymmetric, high risk plays could seem to benefit from high performing people on the spectrum, where people in later stage businesses that have more linear growth or stability benefit from the latter two. > it seems to both normalize groupthink and some of the more shameful characteristics of political operators, and pathologizes clear reasoning and principle. This lines up so closely with my interpretation of reality I am quite amazed. The part that I can't figure out is how it seems like normal people can so effortlessly adapt to these scenarios, for example, take your typical elephant in the room situation where management is lying about something, I don't see how people can so easily differentiate between statements that should be interpreted truthfully and those that shouldn't, and when I ask people about this, they seem to not even know what I'm talking about. Is it as simple as being very good at paying attention to what people do, not what they say?
jackcosgrove 7y ago
It's a numbers game. Neurotypicals outnumber people on the spectrum, so their values become the norm. I really think ASD people are a minority because they struggle with socializing, which mating is a very important kind of. This pattern has been set in stone for so long people think it's some sort of truth about how society works. But as others have pointed out, poor social skills can simply be incongruent social skills. Those you term "political operators" could also be classified as neuro-atypical with cluster B personality disorders. By and large they do run things so maybe their "superpower" exceeds that of the scrupulous "aspie". I think things are changing though, very slowly. There's a big universe outside of human societies. Everything is not a social convention. There is an objective reality, and over the very long run I think truth-telling is the best strategy because lies and ignorance are always exposed. I believe those who are scrupulous and honest will have their day in the end.
solidsnack9000 7y ago
This relates to a lot of the ideas in “Why Nations Fail”. Strategies that are value or performance focused tend to lose out as power centralizes. If running a business is treated as a right and subject to little interference, the key thing to do is run a good business; if running a business is gated by bribes and arbitrary rulings from various officials, the key thing to do is manage those relationships.

Spooky23 7y ago

I agree with you, and I get the impression that the spectrum phenomena in business is a reflection of the tyranny and dysfunction of what is deemed to be normal and how to behave. Decades of leaning out organizations has created an expectation of workers working multiple jobs, and I think that process purged many people who either by personality or diagnosis are in the "spectrum" bucket. People are a suited to detailed technical work shouldn't be evaluated like salesmen. Yet the traditional interview process that is described in the article is just that. IMO, the idealized "normal" corporate employee who is panting like a dog to do a trick and shit out a powerpoint is more problematic.

commandlinefan 7y ago

I’ve struggled with social interactions my whole life. Even now, at 45, they never feel natural or comfortable, and I dread them - but I figured long ago that if I’m smart enough to solve differential equations, program in assembler and speak Japanese, I’m also smart enough to figure out social interactions. So I just watch what other people do, and then do that. It always feels forced and artificial, but either nobody notices or they humor me.

hello_friendos 7y ago
I really feel this comment. I thought I was the only person that felt this way.
noobiemcfoob 7y ago
That's my secret, Cap. I'm always faking it. /Just like everyone else. Seriously, some of the less intrusive locations on the spectrum just strike me as being particularly vocal about logical inconsistencies to one's own detriment.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > Just like everyone else. You think? It seems to me that there are a lot of people (more than the other way around) who go out of their way to seek out social interactions: they go out and have lunch with somebody else just to talk to them, or they chat with a coworker by the coffee machine instead of getting back to their desk as fast as they can, or they strike up a conversation with the barista at Starbucks instead of just trying to say their order without screwing it up… these don’t seem like people who are just faking it to the best of their ability. Or maybe they’re just practicing more studiously than I am?
  - noobiemcfoob 7y ago
    I don't think it's more. I'd happily argue 80% of people keep to themselves 80% of the time, but those 20% gaps are highly visible in contrast. But to the point: What's the socialite's internal monologue while being all chatty? What's the overlap between what they think is happening (e.g. what the script is, what the norms are) and what third parties would see? I see social people who obviously feel connected to the group, but how much of that is just eating up their own internal version of what they see happening while ignoring the smell of any mentally suppressed interactions?

john_moscow 7y ago

>I wonder if these people were always fired, or has something in the business changed that made immoderate instances of these traits a liability. Economic cycle. As long as the main product of a typical west coast company remains the feeling of the future potential it sells to the investors, feelers are mostly an asset and thinkers are a mainly liability.

gwbas1c 7y ago

> Arbitrage, startups, and other asymmetric, high risk plays could seem to benefit from high performing people on the spectrum One person who I've met who is on the spectrum isn't very smart, but is able to talk in a way that some people think he's smart. (IE, this person believed that someone invented a free energy machine.) He can only work in situations where he has intense coaching, so he stays on task. In another situation, when I was working for a startup interviewing candidates; we had a candidate come in who was probably on the spectrum. I don't remember if he was a capable programmer; but what I remember was that he was extremely hard to work with through the interview. I suspected that he'd need 60-120 minutes of someone's undivided attention a day just to keep on task. Furthermore, based on how he acted in the interview, I suspected that all collaborative design work would be high friction. Everyone who interviewed him said no. If we were a larger corporation we could figure out how to give him the attention and coaching he needed.

cr0sh 7y ago
> IE, this person believed that someone invented a free energy machine. That's not false. Many people have invented free energy machines. A /working/ free energy machine, though...that's a different thing.

icelancer 7y ago

>> I wonder if these people were always fired, or has something in the business changed that made immoderate instances of these traits a liability? This is pretty much spot on. People want the upside of someone who is on the spectrum disorder but suddenly can't handle the downside of it. A person is more than their upside.

changoplatanero 7y ago

A concrete example from this week is Dan Povey, one of the greatest speech recognition engineers in the world, who was fired from JHU this week.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
And fired under exactly the kind of circumstances you'd expect someone on the spectrum to accidentally wander into without understanding the gravity of.
- extra88 7y ago
  > White males in this environment seem to be expected to constantly atone for their existence by telegraphing their exclusive concern for every demographic group but their own, like a neutered puppy-dog or some Justin Trudeau man-child. [0] His statement makes it clear he knew what he was getting into. This phrase is indicative of an asshole, not of being "on the spectrum." [0] http://danielpovey.com/leaving.html http://danielpovey.com/leaving.html
  - repolfx 7y ago
    Having read the whole thing I don't see what makes him an asshole. He feels he got fired due to allegations of things he didn't do, because he is (a) white and (b) a man and (c) not apologising for that. And of course, now his enemies are getting him fired from as many jobs as they can. This is why I just ignore claims of people being on the spectrum. It comes across as just an insult deployed against people for ideological reasons. The guy stood up to student "protests" that were disrupting the university, a problem that seems endemic these days, and of course got fired because university administrators seem to be as extremist as the student population. The guy got angry and wrote a public explanation. Given the history of such firings in academia I'm sure he's correct. Nothing about that is indicative of a developmental or mental disorder, which is - let us recall - what Asperger's and autism are. After all, by this standard Martin Luther King and many others who made sacrifices for their beliefs would have been considered deeply autistic.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

> Tech has changed in the last decade, to where I don't think someone "on the spectrum," could survive very long in a west coast company without being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes. What do you mean by "being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes"? In my opinion their employment would be mostly limited by them unknowingly saying the kind of things that get you reported to HR and made to do some mandatory sensitivity training. East coast tech doesn't seem to care so much about that kind of thing (yet).

mistermann 7y ago

> Tech has changed in the last decade, to where I don't think someone "on the spectrum," could survive very long in a west coast company without being preyed upon by people who trade on other attributes > Using Pfeffer's triad of "Performance, Credentials, Relationships," businesses seem to evolve to where success becomes weighted to the latter two instead of purely on performance. Arbitrage, startups, and other asymmetric, high risk plays could seem to benefit from high performing people on the spectrum, where people in later stage businesses that have more linear growth or stability benefit from the latter two. > it seems to both normalize groupthink and some of the more shameful characteristics of political operators, and pathologizes clear reasoning and principle. This lines up so closely with my interpretation of reality I am quite amazed. The part that I can't figure out is how it seems like normal people can so effortlessly adapt to these scenarios, for example, take your typical elephant in the room situation where management is lying about something, I don't see how people can so easily differentiate between statements that should be interpreted truthfully and those that shouldn't, and when I ask people about this, they seem to not even know what I'm talking about. Is it as simple as being very good at paying attention to what people do, not what they say?

jackcosgrove 7y ago

It's a numbers game. Neurotypicals outnumber people on the spectrum, so their values become the norm. I really think ASD people are a minority because they struggle with socializing, which mating is a very important kind of. This pattern has been set in stone for so long people think it's some sort of truth about how society works. But as others have pointed out, poor social skills can simply be incongruent social skills. Those you term "political operators" could also be classified as neuro-atypical with cluster B personality disorders. By and large they do run things so maybe their "superpower" exceeds that of the scrupulous "aspie". I think things are changing though, very slowly. There's a big universe outside of human societies. Everything is not a social convention. There is an objective reality, and over the very long run I think truth-telling is the best strategy because lies and ignorance are always exposed. I believe those who are scrupulous and honest will have their day in the end.

solidsnack9000 7y ago

This relates to a lot of the ideas in “Why Nations Fail”. Strategies that are value or performance focused tend to lose out as power centralizes. If running a business is treated as a right and subject to little interference, the key thing to do is run a good business; if running a business is gated by bribes and arbitrary rulings from various officials, the key thing to do is manage those relationships.