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This piece has the feeling of being written by "every Friday is Hawaiian T-shirt day" after his employer went all remote and he needed a new task. I have worke

by gexla 7y ago

This piece has the feeling of being written by "every Friday is Hawaiian T-shirt day" after his employer went all remote and he needed a new task. I have worked remotely more than not and it's not ideal. I suspect that if teleportation machines existed, then remote work wouldn't be a thing. Once you leave the office for the day (or leave the house to go to the office) then the logistical problems start (where do I find an affordable place to live.) Logistical problems for employees become logistical issues for employers. Working remotely is a trade-off and much of the time it works well enough. I'm guessing that most early remote workers get relatively cushy setups with allowances for equipment and good salaries. As remote becomes more common, then I bet that gets squeezed. Employers shouldn't expect that the average person can make it work. If you don't have a dedicated quiet office area then it gets real difficult. Pets are a distraction. Other people in the home are a distraction (and it's not their fault, they have the right to "be at home".) If you have a significant other living at home full time and that person is in a grumpy mood, then good luck. I feel that people who can make it work are those who either live in a cave with no other living creatures or they have the bread to get a big enough house and funds to create an operations center in a dedicated room. Everyone else should at least get a desk at a co-working space. There's also a lot which gets lost in the communication of remote working. The communication you do have is much more mercenary. A group of special operators can carry out a mission together and even do so with mostly radio silence. But these people lose out of a lot of the more interesting elements of civilian life. Alice is an avatar and emoji's who can get stuff done in remote space. But you don't get to see her world class key short-cut skills from which you could open up a whole new way of thinking about your own operations. You don't see the real pressure your boss or manager is under and you get far less information about how things work because they won't be casually confiding in you at the water cooler. You don't need a NORAD display to show major events and weather conditions around the world to see what challenges your collaborators will be up against in getting things done the coming day. Remote work kind of sucks. Where do I take the survey? ;)

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I always find any work from home I do to be uncomfortable - my home isn't set up for work, and my house is full of distractions. And the boundaries disappear between the "home" and "work" - I can't just ignore emails if they pop up even if I'm done working, as there doesn't seem to be a discrete line anymore, I'm on call 24/7. I'm always worried about not answering the email, as I'm worried the boss will go "why isn't he working at 4 pm?".
- pkalinowski 7y ago
  When I log off, I do Command+Q on Slack and e-mail. Nobody can reach me after work through work channels. I simulate leaving the office.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    I really need to find myself in a position where I have no responsibilities besides just writing code.
    - scient 7y ago
      And finding that place also means you will never be anything more than that. Thats what always strikes me about these complaints about having to do a little extra, or stuff thats not directly in your job description etc. And then complain about how your manager sucks because you are not valued or promoted fast enough. Trust me, most engineers are not THAT good that their code writing contributions alone would justify high career leaps. Even the highly technical leaders need to do a lot of brain work thats not necessarily coding - like architecture design and whatnot, and most of that requires a lot of interaction, discussions and other soft skills.
      - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        I'm surprised to hear people can just turn their brains off at the end of the day - for me I'm always aware of my email and I'm monitoring it, just in case of an outage or some other emergency
okmokmz 7y ago
Wow, there are a ton of assumptions in this argument, and you seem to be projecting a lot of your personal beliefs and feeling as well. I don't have children, but my girlfriend and pets have never bothered me or been a distraction nearly to the extent of distractions that occur in an office. I definitely don't have a big house and lots of money to build an "operations center." I have a little room that I use as my office, homelab, and to home a few other hobbies. I would absolutely hate working in a co-working space, and my productivity would certainly go down. Of your examples of "lost communication," none of those are things I feel I would be missing out on and I've never had issues communicating with my coworkers remotely.
- gexla 7y ago
  There's a difference between being distracted at home and being distracted at the office. If you're getting distracted at the office, you're still doing your job. It might even specifically be your job description to be distracted. If you get distracted all day at work and get nothing scheduled done, then you still did your job. If you get distracted half the day at home (still less than a full day of distractions at the office,) then you have a major problem which is entirely your fault. > I have a little room that I use as my office, homelab, and to home a few other hobbies. That you have a spare room is entirely my point. That's a luxury that not everyone has. If you don't have this, then you are at a disadvantage for being successful with remote work. A workplace is a sort of equalizer, though certainly not perfect. Rich or poor, all you have to do to work at McDonald's is show up. The workplace provides everything else. Sure, your employer may provide allowances for your home setup, but not all will do that and they certainly can't create a spare room in your house. The closest they can get is to pay for a co-working space. > Of your examples of "lost communication," none of those are things I feel I would be missing out on and I've never had issues communicating with my coworkers remotely. It's undisputable that you lose information with remote communication vs face to face communication. We communicate with body language and emotion which doesn't carry over well even in a video feed. People are more willing to share certain things in different modes of communication. Some people don't like to use messaging at all. Remote work is still "good enough" but you do lose information. Losing information doesn't necessarily create "issues communicating with my coworkers remotely" but it does have an adverse effect.
swozey 7y ago
> Once you leave the office for the day (or leave the house to go to the office) then the logistical problems start (where do I find an affordable place to live.) Ironically I spend most of my time wondering about this WHILE living inside the big city and how my money would go so much further and I'd be far happier on quiet land somewhere than packed like sardines with tons of foot and car traffic constantly looking down 15 blocks for "an affordable place to live" where I have to give a days notice about moving in before it's scooped up by someone else..
Tehchops 7y ago
Sour grapes on the part of anecdotally having a non-ideal living space != "remote work sucks"
jdbernard 7y ago
okmokmz said: > there are a ton of assumptions in this argument, and you seem to be projecting a lot of your personal beliefs and feeling as well I agree and I wanted to walk through the differences in my life (as I'm 80% remote): > If you don't have a dedicated quiet office area then it gets real difficult. I agree, but it's not hard to create this environment at home. Buy a house with one more bedroom than you need and make it an office. That's what I've done. > Pets are a distraction. Our dog doesn't come into my office when I'm working. > Other people in the home are a distraction (and it's not their fault, they have the right to "be at home".) I've got three kids. My wife homeschools our children, so they are home all the time. They're all elementary and middle-school age. They are going to be kids and do what they do, even if I asked them not to. And yet this is almost never a distraction for me. Even on calls 90% of the time my audio is far cleaner than my co-workers who are in an open office. This does require understanding and support from my wife, but she's an adult and we're on the same page. This is what we, together, want. When my office door is locked I'm "at work" and she and the kids don't bother me except for emergencies, just like she wouldn't call me at work if I was in the office except for emergencies. On the other hand, I get to "come home" for lunch every day. > If you have a significant other living at home full time and that person is in a grumpy mood, then good luck. As mentioned in the last point, when I'm in my office I'm "at work." Grumpy or not my wife isn't going to bother me. This isn't something special about remote. It's a normal part of maturing in a relationship. Being grumpy is not a good enough reason to call your spouse at work in the middle of their day. It's no different if I'm remote. > I feel that people who can make it work are those who either live in a cave with no other living creatures or they have the bread to get a big enough house and funds to create an operations center in a dedicated room. OK, snark aside, having a dedicated space does make everything easier. But first this isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things if you are intentional about it. The cost of housing can vary quite a bit, but being remote gives you a lot more flexibility to find an affordable, comfortable home that has space for a dedicated office. Second, even without a dedicated room for an office you can make it work. For several years I worked from my bedroom. I had a corner where I setup my "office" and during the work day the bedroom was my office. I will concede that there are many things about this that are not ideal, but it's not as black-and-white-bad-idea as you're making it out to be. It's not like the office is a magically ideal workplace without its own drawbacks. Personally I would much rather deal with the inconveniences of a less than ideal home office than those of the open plan office that is common nowadays. It's not even a comparison for me. > The communication you do have is much more mercenary. This just doesn't match my experience at all. Communication does require more effort in a remote setting, that's true. But in my experience being in the office is not a guarantee that healthy communication with happen. Putting in the effort to communicate intentionally (not just a byproduct of co-location) is valuable either way. I will concede that face-to-face is the king for building relationships. However, this is not a daily need. Also I don't need work to provide a social setting. I've already got more than enough friends and family to "socialize" with outside of work. I do value good relationships with my coworkers and I do like having a chance to meet them in person but we don't need to be BFFs to have a good and productive working relationship. > you don't get to see her world class key short-cut skills from which you could open up a whole new way of thinking about your own operations. 1. No but I can read Tim's blog post about the same subject. 2. I find it a bit rude to be watching other people's monitors as they work so I wouldn't see this anyways. > You don't see the real pressure your boss or manager is under and you get far less information about how things work because they won't be casually confiding in you at the water cooler. 1. Intentional communication addresses some of this. 2. Being in the same location doesn't necessarily get you this. I'm thinking, for example, of the time half the engineering team got laid off on a Friday with no warning. This was a "collaborative open office" company that didn't offer remote. Communication is always critical for a healthy and productive organization. Co-locating provides enough chatter built-in to obfuscate poor communication patterns. And yet poor communication remains one of the main causes of failed and over-budget software systems, even in co-located teams. Remote just makes it more obvious when teams don't know how to communicate. > You don't need a NORAD display to show major events and weather conditions around the world to see what challenges your collaborators will be up against in getting things done the coming day. What? I'm not even looking at the weather for the city I'm in. If my coworkers have a challenge we just talk about it. > Remote work kind of sucks. Work in general these days kind of sucks. In my opinion remote is the saving grace of our industry. I'm at the point I won't even consider a job unless it has either a private office or allows a minimum of 60% remote.

by gexla 7y ago

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

I always find any work from home I do to be uncomfortable - my home isn't set up for work, and my house is full of distractions. And the boundaries disappear between the "home" and "work" - I can't just ignore emails if they pop up even if I'm done working, as there doesn't seem to be a discrete line anymore, I'm on call 24/7. I'm always worried about not answering the email, as I'm worried the boss will go "why isn't he working at 4 pm?".

pkalinowski 7y ago
When I log off, I do Command+Q on Slack and e-mail. Nobody can reach me after work through work channels. I simulate leaving the office.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I really need to find myself in a position where I have no responsibilities besides just writing code.
  - scient 7y ago
    And finding that place also means you will never be anything more than that. Thats what always strikes me about these complaints about having to do a little extra, or stuff thats not directly in your job description etc. And then complain about how your manager sucks because you are not valued or promoted fast enough. Trust me, most engineers are not THAT good that their code writing contributions alone would justify high career leaps. Even the highly technical leaders need to do a lot of brain work thats not necessarily coding - like architecture design and whatnot, and most of that requires a lot of interaction, discussions and other soft skills.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      I'm surprised to hear people can just turn their brains off at the end of the day - for me I'm always aware of my email and I'm monitoring it, just in case of an outage or some other emergency

okmokmz 7y ago

Wow, there are a ton of assumptions in this argument, and you seem to be projecting a lot of your personal beliefs and feeling as well. I don't have children, but my girlfriend and pets have never bothered me or been a distraction nearly to the extent of distractions that occur in an office. I definitely don't have a big house and lots of money to build an "operations center." I have a little room that I use as my office, homelab, and to home a few other hobbies. I would absolutely hate working in a co-working space, and my productivity would certainly go down. Of your examples of "lost communication," none of those are things I feel I would be missing out on and I've never had issues communicating with my coworkers remotely.

gexla 7y ago
There's a difference between being distracted at home and being distracted at the office. If you're getting distracted at the office, you're still doing your job. It might even specifically be your job description to be distracted. If you get distracted all day at work and get nothing scheduled done, then you still did your job. If you get distracted half the day at home (still less than a full day of distractions at the office,) then you have a major problem which is entirely your fault. > I have a little room that I use as my office, homelab, and to home a few other hobbies. That you have a spare room is entirely my point. That's a luxury that not everyone has. If you don't have this, then you are at a disadvantage for being successful with remote work. A workplace is a sort of equalizer, though certainly not perfect. Rich or poor, all you have to do to work at McDonald's is show up. The workplace provides everything else. Sure, your employer may provide allowances for your home setup, but not all will do that and they certainly can't create a spare room in your house. The closest they can get is to pay for a co-working space. > Of your examples of "lost communication," none of those are things I feel I would be missing out on and I've never had issues communicating with my coworkers remotely. It's undisputable that you lose information with remote communication vs face to face communication. We communicate with body language and emotion which doesn't carry over well even in a video feed. People are more willing to share certain things in different modes of communication. Some people don't like to use messaging at all. Remote work is still "good enough" but you do lose information. Losing information doesn't necessarily create "issues communicating with my coworkers remotely" but it does have an adverse effect.

swozey 7y ago

> Once you leave the office for the day (or leave the house to go to the office) then the logistical problems start (where do I find an affordable place to live.) Ironically I spend most of my time wondering about this WHILE living inside the big city and how my money would go so much further and I'd be far happier on quiet land somewhere than packed like sardines with tons of foot and car traffic constantly looking down 15 blocks for "an affordable place to live" where I have to give a days notice about moving in before it's scooped up by someone else..

Tehchops 7y ago

Sour grapes on the part of anecdotally having a non-ideal living space != "remote work sucks"

jdbernard 7y ago

okmokmz said: > there are a ton of assumptions in this argument, and you seem to be projecting a lot of your personal beliefs and feeling as well I agree and I wanted to walk through the differences in my life (as I'm 80% remote): > If you don't have a dedicated quiet office area then it gets real difficult. I agree, but it's not hard to create this environment at home. Buy a house with one more bedroom than you need and make it an office. That's what I've done. > Pets are a distraction. Our dog doesn't come into my office when I'm working. > Other people in the home are a distraction (and it's not their fault, they have the right to "be at home".) I've got three kids. My wife homeschools our children, so they are home all the time. They're all elementary and middle-school age. They are going to be kids and do what they do, even if I asked them not to. And yet this is almost never a distraction for me. Even on calls 90% of the time my audio is far cleaner than my co-workers who are in an open office. This does require understanding and support from my wife, but she's an adult and we're on the same page. This is what we, together, want. When my office door is locked I'm "at work" and she and the kids don't bother me except for emergencies, just like she wouldn't call me at work if I was in the office except for emergencies. On the other hand, I get to "come home" for lunch every day. > If you have a significant other living at home full time and that person is in a grumpy mood, then good luck. As mentioned in the last point, when I'm in my office I'm "at work." Grumpy or not my wife isn't going to bother me. This isn't something special about remote. It's a normal part of maturing in a relationship. Being grumpy is not a good enough reason to call your spouse at work in the middle of their day. It's no different if I'm remote. > I feel that people who can make it work are those who either live in a cave with no other living creatures or they have the bread to get a big enough house and funds to create an operations center in a dedicated room. OK, snark aside, having a dedicated space does make everything easier. But first this isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things if you are intentional about it. The cost of housing can vary quite a bit, but being remote gives you a lot more flexibility to find an affordable, comfortable home that has space for a dedicated office. Second, even without a dedicated room for an office you can make it work. For several years I worked from my bedroom. I had a corner where I setup my "office" and during the work day the bedroom was my office. I will concede that there are many things about this that are not ideal, but it's not as black-and-white-bad-idea as you're making it out to be. It's not like the office is a magically ideal workplace without its own drawbacks. Personally I would much rather deal with the inconveniences of a less than ideal home office than those of the open plan office that is common nowadays. It's not even a comparison for me. > The communication you do have is much more mercenary. This just doesn't match my experience at all. Communication does require more effort in a remote setting, that's true. But in my experience being in the office is not a guarantee that healthy communication with happen. Putting in the effort to communicate intentionally (not just a byproduct of co-location) is valuable either way. I will concede that face-to-face is the king for building relationships. However, this is not a daily need. Also I don't need work to provide a social setting. I've already got more than enough friends and family to "socialize" with outside of work. I do value good relationships with my coworkers and I do like having a chance to meet them in person but we don't need to be BFFs to have a good and productive working relationship. > you don't get to see her world class key short-cut skills from which you could open up a whole new way of thinking about your own operations. 1. No but I can read Tim's blog post about the same subject. 2. I find it a bit rude to be watching other people's monitors as they work so I wouldn't see this anyways. > You don't see the real pressure your boss or manager is under and you get far less information about how things work because they won't be casually confiding in you at the water cooler. 1. Intentional communication addresses some of this. 2. Being in the same location doesn't necessarily get you this. I'm thinking, for example, of the time half the engineering team got laid off on a Friday with no warning. This was a "collaborative open office" company that didn't offer remote. Communication is always critical for a healthy and productive organization. Co-locating provides enough chatter built-in to obfuscate poor communication patterns. And yet poor communication remains one of the main causes of failed and over-budget software systems, even in co-located teams. Remote just makes it more obvious when teams don't know how to communicate. > You don't need a NORAD display to show major events and weather conditions around the world to see what challenges your collaborators will be up against in getting things done the coming day. What? I'm not even looking at the weather for the city I'm in. If my coworkers have a challenge we just talk about it. > Remote work kind of sucks. Work in general these days kind of sucks. In my opinion remote is the saving grace of our industry. I'm at the point I won't even consider a job unless it has either a private office or allows a minimum of 60% remote.