7 ms·

>There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner Courtney

>There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner Courtney Dauwalter dominates men in Ultra races, you can call them niche races if it helps your ego, but lets call those races what they really are...the longest and most grueling races, stacked with elite and professional runners.

zaroth 7y ago
Good fact presented poorly.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  Is it better to just present falsehoods as facts in a polished manner? Or downplay woman's accomplishments as niche, when its clearly the harder accomplishment? What causes one to do those things?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - el_cujo 7y ago
    Surely you're not arguing that these ultra-marathons aren't niche compared to, say, the New York City marathon or marathons in the Olympics? It seems like a bad-faith argument to assume the person you first responded to is belittling the races just because women can and do win them, rather than because they get MUCH less publicity/interest. No reasonable person is going to suggest a 50K marathon isn't physically way harder than a standard marathon.
    - throwaway_law 7y ago
      >Surely you're not arguing that these ultra-marathons aren't niche compared The speed advantage men have, and I never said they didn't, is lost/leveled over distance, so to dismiss these longer races where women can and will filter to the top is odd when making a point about men's superiority. Do less people run them, sure, does that make them niche? No, thousands of people still run Ultra's, its not like we are talking about 1 trained woman and a bunch of untrained men. >It seems like a bad-faith argument to assume the person you first responded to is belittling the races just because women can and do win them, rather than because they get MUCH less publicity/interest. "And that only happens in niche races (niche being every race longer than a marathon..." I don't think it is bad-faith to interpret the post as saying, men are better than women, but acknowledge women do sometimes beat men (statistically more likely in longer races), but then broad brush stroke those wins as "only in" niche races. But I'm not going to get stuck in debating what is niche, especially when it has now devolved into "more niche than marathons." Nothing wrong with remaining objective that men do have a clear speed advantage over women, but that advantage diminishes over long distance, but maybe I am wrong, maybe we should disregard women's wins automatically as niche races. >No reasonable person is going to suggest a 50K marathon isn't physically way harder than a standard marathon. People in this thread have.
mikestew 7y ago
A woman won the overall/men's title at the 2018 New York City Marathon. It only had 55,000 runners and is the biggest marathon in the world, but don't let facts get in your way. You must be massively confused. Confused by the name of the overall winner, perhaps? In Ethiopia, that’s apparently a man’s name. I don’t know how we’re talking past each other, but a person with a penis crossed the line first at NY in 2018. EDIT: mm, I see; stealth edit. Well, I already typed a reply...
username90 7y ago
Men still holds the records for all categories, only reason a woman wins is that very few practice ultramarathons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Best_Performances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Best_P... You can see that the top man ran 433.095 km in 48h, while the top woman did only 401.000 km in that time, so he was about 8% faster. Compare that to 100m where the men are 9% faster, so the male advantage is basically constant with respect to distance. Of course the worlds fastest women will beat any man who doesn't practice, so dedicated women have no problem beating men in smaller races.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >so the male advantage is basically constant with respect to distance. No the men's speed advantage is lost over greater distances. Yes, less people run utlra's but also of those who do run them, they are higher caliber runners on average (professionals/elites). >Of course the worlds fastest women will beat any man who doesn't practice, She is beating professionals in these ultra's, people don't just roll out of bed and run 240 miles without practice. And she has beat them by as much as 10 hours. She even holds the record for longest run in a 24 hour period and its not because men don't run that race, hell David Goggins has done 24 hour races and she beats him by over a half marathon.
  - username90 7y ago
    > She even holds the record for longest run in a 24 hour period No she doesn't, she held the womens record for that category but never the mens. Men record 24h: 303.5 km Women record 24h: 262.2 km Dauwalter record 24h: 250.0 km (155.391 miles) > She is beating professionals in these ultra's I highly doubt that, there are extremely few professional ultra-marathon runners. She might beat professional marathon runners, but that is another sport so isn't really comparable. It is like beating a 100m runner in a marathon, women can do that easily.
    - throwaway_law 7y ago
      That is a fair correction, not at all WR for 24 hour period. WR for a 24 hour race. >there are extremely few professional ultra-marathon runners. That is generally fair, but there are extremely few professional runners period. But per capital, you will find the the runners of 100 mile/240 mile races are going to be more elite on average than your average marathon runner. Are there less ultra runners sure, is the average ultra runner more likely to be elite than a casual runner? I still don't consider Ultra runs niche, and by default I think its wrong to say if a women runs a race, by definition that race is niche.
buzzdenver 7y ago
Courtney Dauwalter is my favorite runner, but the races where she dominated men were really not the most competitive ones. The theory I read says that difference between the sexes gets less as the distance increases, but even in the marathon there is over a 10% difference between women's and men's world records. Or take UTMB, the most competitive ultra out there taking about 24 hours to finish. The women's winner was 33rd and 41st overall the last couple of years.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >The theory I read says that difference between the sexes gets less as the distance increases That is my understanding also. And that's all I am saying, I'm not saying a woman is going to go out and beat Bolt in 100M sprint or even win the WR for the mile. Still to acknowledge the playing field levels over distance and then dismissing those races as niche isn't fair. Read these comments, they suggest the only reason Daualter wins is because men don't practice these runs, that is ridiculous, no one is waking up and running 240 miles.
  - buzzdenver 7y ago
    Is it Moab 240 that you're referring to? Tell me which of the men she beat was elite. Courtney had a great race at Western States last year and dominated the women's field, but she was 12th OA and almost 3 hours slower than the OA winner.
    - throwaway_law 7y ago
      Here are the MOAB 240 (2017 results) I guess not a single runner is elite in your minds eye. You can also check the 2018 results and see if any live up to your standards as she holds the overall race/course record. https://ultrasignup.com/results_event.aspx?did=43733#id1410471 https://ultrasignup.com/results_event.aspx?did=43733#id14104... >Courtney had a great race at Western States last year and dominated the women's field, but she was 12th OA and almost 3 hours slower than the OA winner. And one year she failed to complete that race altogether. She holds multiple records, had has won multiple races overall, but certainly I'm not saying every time she races she wins. List of races she won (beat the men): Mueller Marathon Behind the Rocks Ultra Continental Divide Trail Run (50k) Coldwater Ruble (52 miles) Moab 240 (238 miles) The Bear Chase (50 miles) Riverbank one day (24 hour run) Desert Solstice (100 Miles) Javelina Jundred (100k) FANS (24 hour run) The Chatfield Ultra Race (100k) Tommyknowcker 12 hor & The mine shaft Half (100kk) Chase the Moon (12 hours)
emptyfile 7y ago
Nonsense from a user with a throwaway. >Courtney Dauwalter dominates men in Ultra races She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean. >you can call them niche races if it helps your ego, but lets call those races what they really are...the longest and most grueling races, stacked with elite and professional runners. Even the most competitive ultra is a niche race. If the award money for ultras increased 10x overnight then east africans would be dominating in 5 years (the most competitive ultra in the world, UTMB, has a reward of €35,000). And competition wise, races in america are a far cry from european ultras which will often have thousands of runners. Not to mention thousands of meters of elevation. The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me. EDIT: Oops east, not west africans.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean. Yes, by as much as 10 hours in the MOAB 240, she set the record in a 100K race, she won another 100 miler by 75 minutes. She set another record in a 24 hour run. >Not to mention thousands of meters of elevation. Like the MOAB 240 in Utah she won by 10 hours with 29,467 feet of elevation? >The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me. Where did you get those quotes? Maybe you should consider you are "disgusted" by the woman's accomplishments and frame them as "She will sometimes beat them," without being able to acknowledge the degree of her victories over 2nd place male runners. Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but when she wins, she sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes.
  - emptyfile 7y ago
    Running 240 miles thru a desert and winning against all competition is very impressive, but how on earth do you spin that to a generalization like "she dominates men in ultra races" is totally beyond me. >Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but when she wins, she sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes. You literally made my point.
mikestew 7y ago
you can call them niche races if it helps your ego I call them niche races because as one who dabbles in the occasional ultramarathon, I had to go look up most of the races she's won. She wins Western States, then we have something to talk about. Your overweight neighbor has heard of the New York City Marathon, not so much Run Rabbit Run (a race Courtney has won outright).
davidrm 7y ago
Yeah, my ego is at stake here. Sure. Anyway, yes, any race longer than a marathon is basically niche when analyzed based on the prize pool, media exposure, number of professional and recreational practicioners. Seeing the rise of US skill in football (soccer), we in Croatia like to joke that the only reason we can win a world championship here and there in waterpolo, handball etc., is because americans still don’t find the sport interesting.

zaroth 7y ago

Good fact presented poorly.

throwaway_law 7y ago
Is it better to just present falsehoods as facts in a polished manner? Or downplay woman's accomplishments as niche, when its clearly the harder accomplishment? What causes one to do those things?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- el_cujo 7y ago
  Surely you're not arguing that these ultra-marathons aren't niche compared to, say, the New York City marathon or marathons in the Olympics? It seems like a bad-faith argument to assume the person you first responded to is belittling the races just because women can and do win them, rather than because they get MUCH less publicity/interest. No reasonable person is going to suggest a 50K marathon isn't physically way harder than a standard marathon.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    >Surely you're not arguing that these ultra-marathons aren't niche compared The speed advantage men have, and I never said they didn't, is lost/leveled over distance, so to dismiss these longer races where women can and will filter to the top is odd when making a point about men's superiority. Do less people run them, sure, does that make them niche? No, thousands of people still run Ultra's, its not like we are talking about 1 trained woman and a bunch of untrained men. >It seems like a bad-faith argument to assume the person you first responded to is belittling the races just because women can and do win them, rather than because they get MUCH less publicity/interest. "And that only happens in niche races (niche being every race longer than a marathon..." I don't think it is bad-faith to interpret the post as saying, men are better than women, but acknowledge women do sometimes beat men (statistically more likely in longer races), but then broad brush stroke those wins as "only in" niche races. But I'm not going to get stuck in debating what is niche, especially when it has now devolved into "more niche than marathons." Nothing wrong with remaining objective that men do have a clear speed advantage over women, but that advantage diminishes over long distance, but maybe I am wrong, maybe we should disregard women's wins automatically as niche races. >No reasonable person is going to suggest a 50K marathon isn't physically way harder than a standard marathon. People in this thread have.

mikestew 7y ago

A woman won the overall/men's title at the 2018 New York City Marathon. It only had 55,000 runners and is the biggest marathon in the world, but don't let facts get in your way. You must be massively confused. Confused by the name of the overall winner, perhaps? In Ethiopia, that’s apparently a man’s name. I don’t know how we’re talking past each other, but a person with a penis crossed the line first at NY in 2018. EDIT: mm, I see; stealth edit. Well, I already typed a reply...

username90 7y ago

Men still holds the records for all categories, only reason a woman wins is that very few practice ultramarathons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Best_Performances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Best_P... You can see that the top man ran 433.095 km in 48h, while the top woman did only 401.000 km in that time, so he was about 8% faster. Compare that to 100m where the men are 9% faster, so the male advantage is basically constant with respect to distance. Of course the worlds fastest women will beat any man who doesn't practice, so dedicated women have no problem beating men in smaller races.

throwaway_law 7y ago
>so the male advantage is basically constant with respect to distance. No the men's speed advantage is lost over greater distances. Yes, less people run utlra's but also of those who do run them, they are higher caliber runners on average (professionals/elites). >Of course the worlds fastest women will beat any man who doesn't practice, She is beating professionals in these ultra's, people don't just roll out of bed and run 240 miles without practice. And she has beat them by as much as 10 hours. She even holds the record for longest run in a 24 hour period and its not because men don't run that race, hell David Goggins has done 24 hour races and she beats him by over a half marathon.
- username90 7y ago
  > She even holds the record for longest run in a 24 hour period No she doesn't, she held the womens record for that category but never the mens. Men record 24h: 303.5 km Women record 24h: 262.2 km Dauwalter record 24h: 250.0 km (155.391 miles) > She is beating professionals in these ultra's I highly doubt that, there are extremely few professional ultra-marathon runners. She might beat professional marathon runners, but that is another sport so isn't really comparable. It is like beating a 100m runner in a marathon, women can do that easily.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    That is a fair correction, not at all WR for 24 hour period. WR for a 24 hour race. >there are extremely few professional ultra-marathon runners. That is generally fair, but there are extremely few professional runners period. But per capital, you will find the the runners of 100 mile/240 mile races are going to be more elite on average than your average marathon runner. Are there less ultra runners sure, is the average ultra runner more likely to be elite than a casual runner? I still don't consider Ultra runs niche, and by default I think its wrong to say if a women runs a race, by definition that race is niche.

buzzdenver 7y ago

Courtney Dauwalter is my favorite runner, but the races where she dominated men were really not the most competitive ones. The theory I read says that difference between the sexes gets less as the distance increases, but even in the marathon there is over a 10% difference between women's and men's world records. Or take UTMB, the most competitive ultra out there taking about 24 hours to finish. The women's winner was 33rd and 41st overall the last couple of years.

throwaway_law 7y ago
>The theory I read says that difference between the sexes gets less as the distance increases That is my understanding also. And that's all I am saying, I'm not saying a woman is going to go out and beat Bolt in 100M sprint or even win the WR for the mile. Still to acknowledge the playing field levels over distance and then dismissing those races as niche isn't fair. Read these comments, they suggest the only reason Daualter wins is because men don't practice these runs, that is ridiculous, no one is waking up and running 240 miles.
- buzzdenver 7y ago
  Is it Moab 240 that you're referring to? Tell me which of the men she beat was elite. Courtney had a great race at Western States last year and dominated the women's field, but she was 12th OA and almost 3 hours slower than the OA winner.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    Here are the MOAB 240 (2017 results) I guess not a single runner is elite in your minds eye. You can also check the 2018 results and see if any live up to your standards as she holds the overall race/course record. https://ultrasignup.com/results_event.aspx?did=43733#id1410471 https://ultrasignup.com/results_event.aspx?did=43733#id14104... >Courtney had a great race at Western States last year and dominated the women's field, but she was 12th OA and almost 3 hours slower than the OA winner. And one year she failed to complete that race altogether. She holds multiple records, had has won multiple races overall, but certainly I'm not saying every time she races she wins. List of races she won (beat the men): Mueller Marathon Behind the Rocks Ultra Continental Divide Trail Run (50k) Coldwater Ruble (52 miles) Moab 240 (238 miles) The Bear Chase (50 miles) Riverbank one day (24 hour run) Desert Solstice (100 Miles) Javelina Jundred (100k) FANS (24 hour run) The Chatfield Ultra Race (100k) Tommyknowcker 12 hor & The mine shaft Half (100kk) Chase the Moon (12 hours)

emptyfile 7y ago

Nonsense from a user with a throwaway. >Courtney Dauwalter dominates men in Ultra races She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean. >you can call them niche races if it helps your ego, but lets call those races what they really are...the longest and most grueling races, stacked with elite and professional runners. Even the most competitive ultra is a niche race. If the award money for ultras increased 10x overnight then east africans would be dominating in 5 years (the most competitive ultra in the world, UTMB, has a reward of €35,000). And competition wise, races in america are a far cry from european ultras which will often have thousands of runners. Not to mention thousands of meters of elevation. The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me. EDIT: Oops east, not west africans.

throwaway_law 7y ago
>She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean. Yes, by as much as 10 hours in the MOAB 240, she set the record in a 100K race, she won another 100 miler by 75 minutes. She set another record in a 24 hour run. >Not to mention thousands of meters of elevation. Like the MOAB 240 in Utah she won by 10 hours with 29,467 feet of elevation? >The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me. Where did you get those quotes? Maybe you should consider you are "disgusted" by the woman's accomplishments and frame them as "She will sometimes beat them," without being able to acknowledge the degree of her victories over 2nd place male runners. Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but when she wins, she sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes.
- emptyfile 7y ago
  Running 240 miles thru a desert and winning against all competition is very impressive, but how on earth do you spin that to a generalization like "she dominates men in ultra races" is totally beyond me. >Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but when she wins, she sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes. You literally made my point.

mikestew 7y ago

you can call them niche races if it helps your ego I call them niche races because as one who dabbles in the occasional ultramarathon, I had to go look up most of the races she's won. She wins Western States, then we have something to talk about. Your overweight neighbor has heard of the New York City Marathon, not so much Run Rabbit Run (a race Courtney has won outright).

davidrm 7y ago

Yeah, my ego is at stake here. Sure. Anyway, yes, any race longer than a marathon is basically niche when analyzed based on the prize pool, media exposure, number of professional and recreational practicioners. Seeing the rise of US skill in football (soccer), we in Croatia like to joke that the only reason we can win a world championship here and there in waterpolo, handball etc., is because americans still don’t find the sport interesting.