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I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most peo

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains. Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to, At times growing up I would feel inconsolable rage, but I never connected this to what happened until puberty. I was able to keep the darkness at bay for a few hours at a time by doing things that required intense concentration, but it would always come back. Programming appealed to me for this reason. I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling. Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming at an early age to right a wrong and while programming is a lot of fun; I hid behind a screen to escape personal problems that I thought that the coding marathon high, money & prestige would solve. And the more fun programming got, the worse the issues got and the more I dived into my rabbit-hole. This is not to take away anything from Bill Zeller; he is an incredible brave man alive and dead. Anyone who went to Trinity knows that it's a very hostile environment for coming out. The fact that he kept coding software then and beyond and kept a completely normal pretense is incredible to me. And I want to thank him for his iTunes ripping software, his inspiration to me when I was at undergrad and his brutal honesty in his suicide note.

lwhi 16y ago
I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. I disagree. Maybe it's possible to understand some of what he felt from his eloquent explanation, but I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. There will be other people reading this, who will be in similar situations. It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. There isn't anything brave about taking your own life.
- VB6_Forever 16y ago
  Whether or not taking one's own life is brave, having read his suicide note I think he lived a very brave life.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    Trying to live through this must have been so hard - and yes, maybe that involves bravery; but I think 'bravery' is the wrong term. I think he lived an extremely difficult life - and I think it ended in tragedy. It's a tragedy that he was subjected to abuse, it's a tragedy that he wasn't able to ask for (or receive) help and it's a complete and utter tragedy that he ended up taking his life.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  I'm not sure anybody is saying his suicide was the right thing to do - what struck me was the logical/emotional trap this highly intelligent person had gotten himself into. I mean, clearly reasonable problems trusting anyone (he'd presumably trusted his family, and his unnamed abuser - and look where it got him! - along with his friends who outed him when he thought he had a reasonable expectation of confidentiality), so how could he get the help he needed? He couldn't even reasonably tell anybody of the bind he was in. It was like a real-life version of a Chalker novel, without the escape of knowing it's just fiction. Horrible to read, given that his extreme eloquence and rationality make it crystal clear what was going on in his mind. I don't think he was brave to take his life. I think he was brave to continue living it as long as he managed to do so.
- haberman 16y ago
  > I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others? > It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain, and have no thought but 'I would prefer they hadn't done that, to satisfy my abstract beliefs about right and wrong.' I think the whole thing is very sad, but I feel very gratified to know that he is free of his demons forever.
pvg 16y ago
I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing How, really? Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming By killing himself? Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming Did you kill yourself? It's difficult to read what you have to say as anything but self-absorbed wankery but perhaps I've got it totally wrong.
- lwhi 16y ago
  I see your point - initially when I read the same, I thought that making reference to programming insight as a conclusion was a bit trite and insensitive. I don't think the OP was trying to be insensitive - but it's not possible to take anything good from this act alone. The only possible positive thing that can result is increased personal understanding of the challenges that our own friends and acquaintances might be going through.
billjings 16y ago
I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage out of these arguments. Their ideas can have the force of fact, of truth itself. We find what we look for. Even the arguments we make to ourselves have their stakes and motivations. Mr. Zeller's written a great defense here of the futility of his own existence. He was apparently a smart guy; had I been there myself, I doubt I'd have been able to refute him. However, that he wins the argument doesn't mean that what he believes is true. It doesn't mean that he gets to have me respect his decision. This is a hard thing, and ever so important for people dealing with someone who is depressed to this degree. Depressed folks can be very sharp, so we shouldn't let this kind of logic take us in. There is something deep and fundamental about life or death that an argument cannot sway; if my friend just can't go on and I can't find a problem with their reasoning, that doesn't mean I have to respect their decision. I just haven't found why they are wrong yet.
- philwelch 16y ago
  There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.
  - billjings 16y ago
    It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential. I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.
cynicalkane 16y ago
I didn't think it was rational or positive at all. He suffers constant feelings of helplessness and inadequacy that permeate his every word. He is irrationally fearful and mistrustful. He's a misanthorpe--though I bet he wouldn't call himself that, because he'd rather blame himself than blame humanity, such that he would rather go to the grave than risk therapy... and his utterly twisted view of his fellow man led him to hide his problems until he dumped it all out in a way such that he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences he so feared, because he'd be dead. The real burn is that he not only didn't want to put his rapist in jail, but was terrified of any steps that might remotely end up in that possibility. It's certainly very sad, but it's also, not to mince words, fucking cowardice that might even lead to seeing this tragedy repeated. I don't want to be harsh, but we cannot cannot cannot talk about this stuff as positive or rational at all. Because it not only isn't, but these patterns of thought are extraordinarily dangerous to someone who might think they are rational.

lwhi 16y ago

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. I disagree. Maybe it's possible to understand some of what he felt from his eloquent explanation, but I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. There will be other people reading this, who will be in similar situations. It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. There isn't anything brave about taking your own life.

VB6_Forever 16y ago
Whether or not taking one's own life is brave, having read his suicide note I think he lived a very brave life.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Trying to live through this must have been so hard - and yes, maybe that involves bravery; but I think 'bravery' is the wrong term. I think he lived an extremely difficult life - and I think it ended in tragedy. It's a tragedy that he was subjected to abuse, it's a tragedy that he wasn't able to ask for (or receive) help and it's a complete and utter tragedy that he ended up taking his life.
Vivtek 16y ago
I'm not sure anybody is saying his suicide was the right thing to do - what struck me was the logical/emotional trap this highly intelligent person had gotten himself into. I mean, clearly reasonable problems trusting anyone (he'd presumably trusted his family, and his unnamed abuser - and look where it got him! - along with his friends who outed him when he thought he had a reasonable expectation of confidentiality), so how could he get the help he needed? He couldn't even reasonably tell anybody of the bind he was in. It was like a real-life version of a Chalker novel, without the escape of knowing it's just fiction. Horrible to read, given that his extreme eloquence and rationality make it crystal clear what was going on in his mind. I don't think he was brave to take his life. I think he was brave to continue living it as long as he managed to do so.
haberman 16y ago
> I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others? > It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain, and have no thought but 'I would prefer they hadn't done that, to satisfy my abstract beliefs about right and wrong.' I think the whole thing is very sad, but I feel very gratified to know that he is free of his demons forever.

pvg 16y ago

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing How, really? Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming By killing himself? Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming Did you kill yourself? It's difficult to read what you have to say as anything but self-absorbed wankery but perhaps I've got it totally wrong.

lwhi 16y ago
I see your point - initially when I read the same, I thought that making reference to programming insight as a conclusion was a bit trite and insensitive. I don't think the OP was trying to be insensitive - but it's not possible to take anything good from this act alone. The only possible positive thing that can result is increased personal understanding of the challenges that our own friends and acquaintances might be going through.

billjings 16y ago

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it... --- There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage out of these arguments. Their ideas can have the force of fact, of truth itself. We find what we look for. Even the arguments we make to ourselves have their stakes and motivations. Mr. Zeller's written a great defense here of the futility of his own existence. He was apparently a smart guy; had I been there myself, I doubt I'd have been able to refute him. However, that he wins the argument doesn't mean that what he believes is true. It doesn't mean that he gets to have me respect his decision. This is a hard thing, and ever so important for people dealing with someone who is depressed to this degree. Depressed folks can be very sharp, so we shouldn't let this kind of logic take us in. There is something deep and fundamental about life or death that an argument cannot sway; if my friend just can't go on and I can't find a problem with their reasoning, that doesn't mean I have to respect their decision. I just haven't found why they are wrong yet.

philwelch 16y ago
There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.
- billjings 16y ago
  It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential. I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.

cynicalkane 16y ago

I didn't think it was rational or positive at all. He suffers constant feelings of helplessness and inadequacy that permeate his every word. He is irrationally fearful and mistrustful. He's a misanthorpe--though I bet he wouldn't call himself that, because he'd rather blame himself than blame humanity, such that he would rather go to the grave than risk therapy... and his utterly twisted view of his fellow man led him to hide his problems until he dumped it all out in a way such that he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences he so feared, because he'd be dead. The real burn is that he not only didn't want to put his rapist in jail, but was terrified of any steps that might remotely end up in that possibility. It's certainly very sad, but it's also, not to mince words, fucking cowardice that might even lead to seeing this tragedy repeated. I don't want to be harsh, but we cannot cannot cannot talk about this stuff as positive or rational at all. Because it not only isn't, but these patterns of thought are extraordinarily dangerous to someone who might think they are rational.