26 ms·

Ultra marathon runner earns awards for both first place woman and overall winner

204 points by he0001 7y ago

adrianN 7y ago
That's a terrific achievement. It's extremely rare for women to have such good endurance.
- have_faith 7y ago
  As a new-comer to the ultra world I got the impression women did particularly well: https://gearjunkie.com/courtney-dauwalter-moab-200-winner https://gearjunkie.com/courtney-dauwalter-moab-200-winner
  - lhl 7y ago
    Last year the NYTimes had a nice writeup about her https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/sports/courtney-dauwalter-200-mile-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/sports/courtney-dauwalter... - I was following up on that and found an interview she did with Joe Rogan in 2017 after winning the MOAB 240, and some of the stories she tells about persevering through physical fatigue (and hallucinations, etc) is unreal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DfjXnIk6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DfjXnIk6c
    - have_faith 7y ago
      I've seen the Joe Rogan interview, it's a great listen. Equally off-putting and inspiring as one of my goals is to finish an ultra.
- krstffr 7y ago
  Ultra running is actually one of few sports where men and women are quite close, so I would not agree at all that it's "extremely rare for women to have such good endurance". EDIT: Added this link for some examples: https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-running/a20803612/why-women-rule-ultrarunning/ https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-running/a20803612/why-wom...
  - gameswithgo 7y ago
    50k is not far from a marathon where men are clearly faster when the level of competition is high. its fair to say 7:40 pace for 30 miles is rare for a woman. also rare for a man!
    - kaitai 7y ago
      Trail running seems to be different than road running when it comes to gender differences.
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    What makes Ultra running different? Women are still about 10k behind men for the world record in the one hour circle track (cycling) and their records are behind men in Olympic swimming (where they should have a considerable advantage due to higher average buoyancy/fat cell density). For most amateur sports, the numbers will be all over the place. But for pro sports or things like marathons with huge number of participants, you're getting the top of the curve. A pro-woman athlete could dominate most of us average peeps (male and female), but when going against career athletes, we're hitting the limits of how we happened to evolve. Human males are still larger on average than women when it comes to muscle mass, which is the driving factor for a lot of sports. There are mammals where the females are larger than males on average. Somewhere in out universe, such a species could be sentient like us. It's be curious to see how their own culture of sports, societal roles and dominance evolved compared to our own. edit: Should have read the link in the above article. Women's smaller average size helps a lot on the downhills apparently.
    - YawningAngel 7y ago
      Not that many people do ultra-endurance races, so you're not reliably getting the top of the curve. Variance is high as competitors frequently don't enter (they can't race all the events as they're too demanding) or drop out due to injury/ill fortune. Male muscle mass is not really an advantage in an event wherein the primary goal is to sustain a low effort for a very long time. Those are a few of my guesses.
    - 7y ago
- michaelt 7y ago
  Interestingly, the World Endurance record for distance in a calendar year is also currently held by a woman [1] - 86,537 miles, well above the previous record of 76,076 miles. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_cycling_records&oldid=911550897#World_Endurance_record_for_distance_in_a_calendar_year https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_cycling_r...
  - onion2k 7y ago
    Any idea why the record from 1939 stood for so long?
  - anu7df 7y ago
    World endurance record in Cycling, for those wondering how on earth would a person run around 250 miles a day for a whole year. An Incredible feat even on a bike.
  - Hitton 7y ago
    This record isn't really that impressive. Average distance a day was 382 km a day. Assuming riding on a road without hills that much can be done by any good amateur, the cyclist just needs perseverance to do that every day all year long and not having to care about a job etc.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Endurance != strength. Women have less strength, for endurance they're close (if not better): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/women-more-stamina-muscle-endurance-exercise-sport-men-science-study-university-of-british-columbia-a7911776.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/women-more-stamin...
genzoman 7y ago
Barely, if any, difference between the sexes in races at this distance. More women competing mean more will continue to win. Congrats to the BAMF who won.
- geargrinder 7y ago
  It's great when women win these races, and I wish there were more, but don't get the misperception they are somehow faster in this sport compared to men than in other sports. It all depends who shows up on the start line. Elite women are faster than nearly all the men, so if an elite woman shows up, but no elite men do, she will likely win. List of ultrarunning records: https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-all-time-lists/ https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-all-... Normally awards are for "First Place Male" and First Place Female." Not sure why this race had an award for "overall."
  - arcturus17 7y ago
    Looking at those record tables has me wondering what GP is referring to when they say that barely any difference exists between the sexes...
    - IIAOPSW 7y ago
      Normalize it based on the fraction of women in the race to start with maybe?
      - jtbayly 7y ago
        Go for it. Knock yourself out trying to prove there are no differences between the sexes. While you're at it normalize success at giving birth based on the fraction of men to attempt it.
        peripitea 7y ago
        To be fair, the differences here seem to be smaller than in other sports, suggesting that while testosterone is a factor it may be less than it is in other sports. If 90% of the competitors in these races are male, that would further impact this discrepancy.
curiousgal 7y ago
The writing is a bit confusing so here's a TL;DR: Usually in these races, there are two trophies, one for the overall winner and one for the female winner. This time, since a woman finished first overall, she got both trophies.
- sabertoothed 7y ago
  Thanks. What a terribly misleading headline then.
- kaitai 7y ago
  Yes. I was initially a bit confused, actually, as in cross-country skiing they often just have a men's category and a women's category, and then it's easy to award the trophies. (As far as I know there is no non-binary modification yet.)
  - loxs 7y ago
    Because men will win them almost every time? Like "I identified non-binary for the duration of the race, don't be a bigot!"
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      This comment confuses me because the implication here is that people identify as nonbinary exclusively to win trophies in non-existent sports categories? Isn't that just lying?
      - loxs 7y ago
        Can you (or anyone) objectively prove that they are or are not non-binary? It's too easy to cheat and if the rewards are big enough, too many will.
        SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        Presumably they'd have to live as a nonbinary person generally, which would come with all the social consequences of being 'out'. Also it may be possible that male-only categories are still rewarded greater than other categories (eg. womens tennis vs mens tennis and other controversies). If someone wants to cheat, there's easier ways to cheat (doping) than taking on a whole pile of societal judgements in every facet of one's life, constantly, and trying to push against it in affirmation of one's own identity. Including accusations of lying about it for the win. EDIT: Of course there's no way to objective prove a gender. We don't even have 'objective' ways to prove someone's gender even when they fall upon the binary. We have cis women who have been disqualified for having the wrong chromosomes even though they have qualifying secondary sex characteristics (which athletes have also been recorded needing to be subjected to invasive exposing of their bodies to verify the category).
mrosett 7y ago
This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of HN. A random ultramarathon not planning for a woman winning just isn’t that surprising or interesting.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- onion2k 7y ago
  This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of HN. HN readers upvoted it. That's literally all there is to something being on the front page.
- seapunk 7y ago
  If it stays at the top of HN front page, it means that it's relevant for the community. HN is about curiosity and conversations, interesting threads create value so people can learn by spending some time here. In my case, it was the comment of michaelt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745614
- dtwest 7y ago
  I agree, great story but seems off topic for HN. From the guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." A woman winning a race is not a new phenomenon. A quick google search produces: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/17/jasmin-paris-first-woman-win-gruelling-286-mile-montane-spice-race-ultrarunning https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/17/jasmin-paris-f... https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/06/world/fiona-kolbinger-wins-transcontinental-race-spt-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/06/world/fiona-kolbinger-win... https://trailrunnermag.com/people/is-women-winning-ultras-overall-a-trend.html https://trailrunnermag.com/people/is-women-winning-ultras-ov...
seunosewa 7y ago
I could not understand their reason for not having a best male trophy in the future. Can someone who understood it explain it? Thanks.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  It's just the way this particular competition was set up. Instead of male and female, they added a top female award and kept the other one "overall."
  - twic 7y ago
    seunosewa is referring to these paragraphs: > After the race, Hardy ordered a first place male trophy to be made for Ellsworth. When asked whether the race might offer first place male trophies in the future, Hardy said probably not. Instead of giving out more awards, he is more interested in awarding the top six finishers, regardless of gender. > “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-specific awards,” he said. “But I think a race is a race, and the best women can beat the men on a given day. And that’s awesome. Other times, they don’t make the podium. What we don’t want to do is water down the prestige of placing on the podium, no matter if you’re a man or woman.”
    - krzat 7y ago
      > people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards So having female award is sexist and not having that award is also sexist.
- mbel 7y ago
  Same here, especially since they plan to keep the female trophy.
- FakeComments 7y ago
  Misandry — only women are worth celebrating as a group, while men need to shut up and suffer to pay for female privilege. It’s the same reason women have earned more degrees since 1978, yet there’s never been a serious effort to help men in education. It’s the same reason women lie about a “wage gap”, which really is the sexist position that when men work, they inherently owe women some of the benefits. This is the obvious outcome of institutional sexism, such as allowing only one sex to form political groups and lobby for their interests. Feminism is sexism.
aphextim 7y ago
From what I've observed running those ultras are just as much of a mental task as they are physical. Granted you need to be in extreme physical shape to do one of these. I feel that if you were to take a bunch of people that are physically capable and enter them, those with the mental fortitude are going to be the ones coming out on top and/or finishing. I am wondering if this is part of the reason why women are able to compete just as well as men on equal footing.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Definitely Running with some intensity is tiring, even if the pace is slow enough, also I think marathoners manage to deplete their glycogen supplies in the race However, focusing on running for the entire time is something I personally (and I guess a lot of people) wouldn't be able to do.
- ordinaryperson 7y ago
  Nothing against women but they are not able to "compete just as well as men on equal footing" in ultras. Her time of 3:58 is more than an hour behind the men's record, suggesting the men's competition at this race was not strong. At the shortest distance, 100 meters, Flojo still has the world record at 10.5 seconds, a full second behind Usain Bolt's 9.5. Whether long or short races, women cannot physically compete with men. In the ultra world Sierre Zenal was just recently run where Killian Jornet set a new course record, and Pike's Peak Marathon is in a few days. Most of the serious ultra runners are doing those events, not this one. That being said, very cool for her.
  - steve_gh 7y ago
    Sierre Zinal is a pretty short race - it's only 31km. Serious ultra runners run a variety of distances, including the very long ones such as the UTMB (160km) and the Tor des Geants (340km). Earlier this year Jasmine Parris won the Spine race (the UK's best known very long ultra: 400km along the Pennine Way in January). Not only did she break the overall course record by 12hrs, she also beat the previous year's winner (Eugeni Sole), who was evacuated off the last hill, 6km from the end, while in 2nd place. Allez les filles! Steve (edit: spelling)
nsndnd 7y ago
What's the length of the run? 50k could refer to 50km, yet, ultra usually refers to longer runs like 100km - 50 miles are 80km, so what would make more sense. Judging by the time per mile they state in the article, it's 50km.
- have_faith 7y ago
  Ultra refers to runs longer than a conventional marathon (42km~). 50km is generally the starting point for the ultra distance though and 100km is a more common benchmark.
rraghur 7y ago
Wasn't there a mexican tribe where they run marathons all the time? IIRC, a woman from the tribe participated and won an ultra marathon hands down (and wearing slippers made of tyres or something like that) Found it - https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_311854.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_31...
- croon 7y ago
  The same tribe detailed in the book "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall that was very popular a few years ago.
  - comicjk 7y ago
    The book that led to the runner's fracture in my left foot. Note to future readers who tend to overdo things: we may be born to run, but not on concrete.
    - frereubu 7y ago
      I came to this conclusion after trying to run in Vivo Barefoot shoes on tarmac (thankfully without the extra prompt of an injury). The technique he describes - avoiding heel strike and running on the balls of your feet to allow your Achilles tendon / calf to provide spring - is a good one, but it's just as effective in cushioned running shoes. I do wish running shoes had wider toe boxes like the Vivo ones though.
      - hnlion 7y ago
        That's where Altra's come in. Wide toe box, zero drop, but cushioned.
        frereubu 7y ago
        Thanks, will take a look.
      - 7y ago
Cenk 7y ago
> “I ended up taking both awards—the overall winner and the first place female,” Pell said. “I felt bad that the first place man didn’t have one, so I tried to convince them to blot out the ‘fe’ on ‘female’, but they said to just keep both trophies. It was pretty funny.”
- ultrarunner 7y ago
  That's just an incompetent race director. There is no end to the lack of thought put into award schedules. I once got three (cheap plastic) medals for winning various categories that all overlapped during an awards ceremony that went on way too long. I suspect that this is the same (boring) situation, but runner's world being the garbage magazine that they are figured they could push the sociopolitical angle and get more clicks.
jonwinstanley 7y ago
She didn't win the 'Male' trophy, she won the winner's trophy and the 'First Female' trophy.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  The whole article is confusing. > Unfortunately, while there was an award made for the first place female, there was no award prepared for the first place male. Instead, there was only a trophy for the overall winner, which was predicted to be a man. What the heck? This confusing logic is all throughout the article.
  - mkl 7y ago
    Those sentences make complete sense to me. What's the problem?
  - reportgunner 7y ago
    Yeah wtf is a "male" trophy ?
    - drakonka 7y ago
      The same thing that the "female" trophy (which they had) is, but for the first male...
      - tux1968 7y ago
        No, there is no male trophy. If there were it wouldn't have been given to a woman, it would have been given to the fastest male (even though he didn't come first). There is a winner trophy, and a fastest-female trophy. She won both.
        castis 7y ago
        I believe thats what drakonka is saying.
      - 7y ago
EdwardDiego 7y ago
Entirely unsurprised. There's various reasons why it could be so, e.g., https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6b2b https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6... or https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-men/ https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-men/ What does surprise me though is that the expectation that the winner would be a man.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ptah 7y ago
another 50 years and the myth of the stronger male will be gone
- jhawk28 7y ago
  A nice fantasy, but how is biology going to change?
  - ptah 7y ago
    not sure, the science has changed considerably since victorian times
    - rimliu 7y ago
      And still science indicates nothing like you claim.
      - ptah 7y ago
        not yet
        rimliu 7y ago
        Unless the human hormone levels magically switch, it will not change. It may reveal more details on how the physiology works, but it will not change the base arrangement of the things.
        ptah 7y ago
        that's what eugenicists and 1930's science said about black people. science believed that black people would never outperform white people due to genetic differences in leg structure back then
- louisswiss 7y ago
  If that's true, it'll be because the word "strong" is redefined. I'm genuinely undecided as to whether that's a good thing or not.
oinkgrr 7y ago
An example where we treat men as the default and women as atypical? https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-women_9781419729072/ https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-women_97814197...
davidrm 7y ago
In running, female only trophies follow the same philosophy as age group trophies. Overall winner is reserved for whoever crosses the line first. Then there are M/F age groups for older runners (5y wide age groups most often starting at 30), and "female overall winner". Having male only trophies is most often redundant because 99% of overall winners are male. That's just life. From time to time, an high/elite level female runner shows up when there are no elite male runner and she takes the overall winner. And that only happens in niche races (niche being every race longer than a marathon and some smaller city races). Ultras are also more likely to have DNFs (did not finish). There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner, because both m/f elites show up and men win by a huge margin.
- leguminous 7y ago
  > There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner [...] It wasn't a major city race and probably had a lot of casual runners, but I ran a half marathon earlier this year with around 20,000 participants. A woman won the overall in 1:18:30. The people who are good at this are just so much better at it than the average person. A fast woman, even if she isn't faster than the fastest men, will still be faster than 99.9+% of them.
  - finebalance 7y ago
    >The people who are good at this are just so much better at it than the average person. A fast woman, even if she isn't faster than the fastest men, will still be faster than 99.9+% of them. That's not in doubt. An extremely skilled person will outcompete the field, all other things being equal. Unfortunately, with reference to most sports, all other things aren't equal, which is why good high-school male teams in sports such as soccer can credibly compete with national-level adult female teams.
  - davidrm 7y ago
    But 1:18 is far far away from any professional result. That’s actually confirming what I said. I’m friends with two people who can beat that (1:16, 1:15). They have day jobs. That race just wasn’t that competitive, even if it had 20k runners.
fergie 7y ago
There has been a theory going around for a while, supported by a growing body of evidence, that women might actually be better at some endurance events than men. https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=women+better+at+marathons&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=wom... EDIT: POTENTIALLY better obviously, not ACTUALLY better, since currently these events are generally won by men.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  What can a "growing body of evidence" be, when performance at these events is precisely timed? Either women win or men win.
  - comicjk 7y ago
    Race performance measures talent + training. Inasmuch as optimal training for women is less understood than for men, they may have room to improve that doesn't show up in race times. Talent at race time is also socially dependent, because it depends on recruiting, and female athletes may be less likely to be discovered. These factors came together in the 1970s to produce a rapid improvement in women's marathon times, while no corresponding drop happened for men's times. While they never caught up to men's, the women's record in 1985 was better than the men's record in 1950.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      I see, so it's less about a growing body of evidence and more about women training better and improving their times. I'm very interested to see whether they will get as good as/better than men in some sports.
- jbob2000 7y ago
  Marathon/Ultra swimming is one where women do much better. Multiple theories as to why; higher body fat and low bone density makes it easier to float, bigger hips means more buoyancy towards the back of the body when swimming, and/or higher pain tolerance. Men can't get anywhere close to the records that women ultra swimmers set.
growlist 7y ago
The exception that proves the rule.
neilduncan 7y ago
Fiona Kolbinger outright won the most recent Transcontinental bike race, in Europe. 4000km from eastern Bulgaria to northwest France. https://www.transcontinental.cc/report https://www.transcontinental.cc/report
goatinaboat 7y ago
I look forward to the day that gender is removed from the Olympics and the football World Cup. Not only will it be non-sexist it will half the cost of staging it letting poorer countries do it too. A win for everyone.
- ultrarunner 7y ago
  So back to countries only sending men, then?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
ARandomerDude 7y ago
Sign of the times: I had to look at her picture to see if she was an actual woman.
ryanmcbride 7y ago
Happy for Ellie Pell (aka "Woman" in the article title) Sexism of low expectations. Race director wanted to be sure to include a best in class trophy for women, which is fine, but assumed (incorrectly) that there wouldn't be a need for a best in class trophy for men. Assumed that they'd just get the 'best overall' trophy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- brippalcharrid 7y ago
  > Sexism of low expectations > “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-specific awards,” Ironically, it seems that the race organizer had first set out not to have gender-specific awards at all, but they chose to add the female-specific award to avoid accusations of them marginalizing women's achievements (and being labelled "sexist").
dejaime 7y ago
Title should be "50K ultra organization failed to manufacture a 'male' trophy.", clickbait 100

204 points by he0001 7y ago

adrianN 7y ago

That's a terrific achievement. It's extremely rare for women to have such good endurance.

have_faith 7y ago
As a new-comer to the ultra world I got the impression women did particularly well: https://gearjunkie.com/courtney-dauwalter-moab-200-winner https://gearjunkie.com/courtney-dauwalter-moab-200-winner
- lhl 7y ago
  Last year the NYTimes had a nice writeup about her https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/sports/courtney-dauwalter-200-mile-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/sports/courtney-dauwalter... - I was following up on that and found an interview she did with Joe Rogan in 2017 after winning the MOAB 240, and some of the stories she tells about persevering through physical fatigue (and hallucinations, etc) is unreal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DfjXnIk6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DfjXnIk6c
  - have_faith 7y ago
    I've seen the Joe Rogan interview, it's a great listen. Equally off-putting and inspiring as one of my goals is to finish an ultra.
krstffr 7y ago
Ultra running is actually one of few sports where men and women are quite close, so I would not agree at all that it's "extremely rare for women to have such good endurance". EDIT: Added this link for some examples: https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-running/a20803612/why-women-rule-ultrarunning/ https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-running/a20803612/why-wom...
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  50k is not far from a marathon where men are clearly faster when the level of competition is high. its fair to say 7:40 pace for 30 miles is rare for a woman. also rare for a man!
  - kaitai 7y ago
    Trail running seems to be different than road running when it comes to gender differences.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  What makes Ultra running different? Women are still about 10k behind men for the world record in the one hour circle track (cycling) and their records are behind men in Olympic swimming (where they should have a considerable advantage due to higher average buoyancy/fat cell density). For most amateur sports, the numbers will be all over the place. But for pro sports or things like marathons with huge number of participants, you're getting the top of the curve. A pro-woman athlete could dominate most of us average peeps (male and female), but when going against career athletes, we're hitting the limits of how we happened to evolve. Human males are still larger on average than women when it comes to muscle mass, which is the driving factor for a lot of sports. There are mammals where the females are larger than males on average. Somewhere in out universe, such a species could be sentient like us. It's be curious to see how their own culture of sports, societal roles and dominance evolved compared to our own. edit: Should have read the link in the above article. Women's smaller average size helps a lot on the downhills apparently.
  - YawningAngel 7y ago
    Not that many people do ultra-endurance races, so you're not reliably getting the top of the curve. Variance is high as competitors frequently don't enter (they can't race all the events as they're too demanding) or drop out due to injury/ill fortune. Male muscle mass is not really an advantage in an event wherein the primary goal is to sustain a low effort for a very long time. Those are a few of my guesses.
  - 7y ago
michaelt 7y ago
Interestingly, the World Endurance record for distance in a calendar year is also currently held by a woman [1] - 86,537 miles, well above the previous record of 76,076 miles. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_cycling_records&oldid=911550897#World_Endurance_record_for_distance_in_a_calendar_year https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_cycling_r...
- onion2k 7y ago
  Any idea why the record from 1939 stood for so long?
- anu7df 7y ago
  World endurance record in Cycling, for those wondering how on earth would a person run around 250 miles a day for a whole year. An Incredible feat even on a bike.
- Hitton 7y ago
  This record isn't really that impressive. Average distance a day was 382 km a day. Assuming riding on a road without hills that much can be done by any good amateur, the cyclist just needs perseverance to do that every day all year long and not having to care about a job etc.
coldtea 7y ago
Endurance != strength. Women have less strength, for endurance they're close (if not better): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/women-more-stamina-muscle-endurance-exercise-sport-men-science-study-university-of-british-columbia-a7911776.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/women-more-stamin...

genzoman 7y ago

Barely, if any, difference between the sexes in races at this distance. More women competing mean more will continue to win. Congrats to the BAMF who won.

geargrinder 7y ago
It's great when women win these races, and I wish there were more, but don't get the misperception they are somehow faster in this sport compared to men than in other sports. It all depends who shows up on the start line. Elite women are faster than nearly all the men, so if an elite woman shows up, but no elite men do, she will likely win. List of ultrarunning records: https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-all-time-lists/ https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-all-... Normally awards are for "First Place Male" and First Place Female." Not sure why this race had an award for "overall."
- arcturus17 7y ago
  Looking at those record tables has me wondering what GP is referring to when they say that barely any difference exists between the sexes...
  - IIAOPSW 7y ago
    Normalize it based on the fraction of women in the race to start with maybe?
    - jtbayly 7y ago
      Go for it. Knock yourself out trying to prove there are no differences between the sexes. While you're at it normalize success at giving birth based on the fraction of men to attempt it.
      - peripitea 7y ago
        To be fair, the differences here seem to be smaller than in other sports, suggesting that while testosterone is a factor it may be less than it is in other sports. If 90% of the competitors in these races are male, that would further impact this discrepancy.

curiousgal 7y ago

The writing is a bit confusing so here's a TL;DR: Usually in these races, there are two trophies, one for the overall winner and one for the female winner. This time, since a woman finished first overall, she got both trophies.

sabertoothed 7y ago
Thanks. What a terribly misleading headline then.
kaitai 7y ago
Yes. I was initially a bit confused, actually, as in cross-country skiing they often just have a men's category and a women's category, and then it's easy to award the trophies. (As far as I know there is no non-binary modification yet.)
- loxs 7y ago
  Because men will win them almost every time? Like "I identified non-binary for the duration of the race, don't be a bigot!"
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    This comment confuses me because the implication here is that people identify as nonbinary exclusively to win trophies in non-existent sports categories? Isn't that just lying?
    - loxs 7y ago
      Can you (or anyone) objectively prove that they are or are not non-binary? It's too easy to cheat and if the rewards are big enough, too many will.
      - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        Presumably they'd have to live as a nonbinary person generally, which would come with all the social consequences of being 'out'. Also it may be possible that male-only categories are still rewarded greater than other categories (eg. womens tennis vs mens tennis and other controversies). If someone wants to cheat, there's easier ways to cheat (doping) than taking on a whole pile of societal judgements in every facet of one's life, constantly, and trying to push against it in affirmation of one's own identity. Including accusations of lying about it for the win. EDIT: Of course there's no way to objective prove a gender. We don't even have 'objective' ways to prove someone's gender even when they fall upon the binary. We have cis women who have been disqualified for having the wrong chromosomes even though they have qualifying secondary sex characteristics (which athletes have also been recorded needing to be subjected to invasive exposing of their bodies to verify the category).

mrosett 7y ago

This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of HN. A random ultramarathon not planning for a woman winning just isn’t that surprising or interesting.

deleted 7y ago
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onion2k 7y ago
This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of HN. HN readers upvoted it. That's literally all there is to something being on the front page.
seapunk 7y ago
If it stays at the top of HN front page, it means that it's relevant for the community. HN is about curiosity and conversations, interesting threads create value so people can learn by spending some time here. In my case, it was the comment of michaelt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745614
dtwest 7y ago
I agree, great story but seems off topic for HN. From the guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." A woman winning a race is not a new phenomenon. A quick google search produces: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/17/jasmin-paris-first-woman-win-gruelling-286-mile-montane-spice-race-ultrarunning https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/17/jasmin-paris-f... https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/06/world/fiona-kolbinger-wins-transcontinental-race-spt-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/06/world/fiona-kolbinger-win... https://trailrunnermag.com/people/is-women-winning-ultras-overall-a-trend.html https://trailrunnermag.com/people/is-women-winning-ultras-ov...

seunosewa 7y ago

I could not understand their reason for not having a best male trophy in the future. Can someone who understood it explain it? Thanks.

djsumdog 7y ago
It's just the way this particular competition was set up. Instead of male and female, they added a top female award and kept the other one "overall."
- twic 7y ago
  seunosewa is referring to these paragraphs: > After the race, Hardy ordered a first place male trophy to be made for Ellsworth. When asked whether the race might offer first place male trophies in the future, Hardy said probably not. Instead of giving out more awards, he is more interested in awarding the top six finishers, regardless of gender. > “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-specific awards,” he said. “But I think a race is a race, and the best women can beat the men on a given day. And that’s awesome. Other times, they don’t make the podium. What we don’t want to do is water down the prestige of placing on the podium, no matter if you’re a man or woman.”
  - krzat 7y ago
    > people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards So having female award is sexist and not having that award is also sexist.
mbel 7y ago
Same here, especially since they plan to keep the female trophy.
FakeComments 7y ago
Misandry — only women are worth celebrating as a group, while men need to shut up and suffer to pay for female privilege. It’s the same reason women have earned more degrees since 1978, yet there’s never been a serious effort to help men in education. It’s the same reason women lie about a “wage gap”, which really is the sexist position that when men work, they inherently owe women some of the benefits. This is the obvious outcome of institutional sexism, such as allowing only one sex to form political groups and lobby for their interests. Feminism is sexism.

aphextim 7y ago

From what I've observed running those ultras are just as much of a mental task as they are physical. Granted you need to be in extreme physical shape to do one of these. I feel that if you were to take a bunch of people that are physically capable and enter them, those with the mental fortitude are going to be the ones coming out on top and/or finishing. I am wondering if this is part of the reason why women are able to compete just as well as men on equal footing.

raverbashing 7y ago
Definitely Running with some intensity is tiring, even if the pace is slow enough, also I think marathoners manage to deplete their glycogen supplies in the race However, focusing on running for the entire time is something I personally (and I guess a lot of people) wouldn't be able to do.
ordinaryperson 7y ago
Nothing against women but they are not able to "compete just as well as men on equal footing" in ultras. Her time of 3:58 is more than an hour behind the men's record, suggesting the men's competition at this race was not strong. At the shortest distance, 100 meters, Flojo still has the world record at 10.5 seconds, a full second behind Usain Bolt's 9.5. Whether long or short races, women cannot physically compete with men. In the ultra world Sierre Zenal was just recently run where Killian Jornet set a new course record, and Pike's Peak Marathon is in a few days. Most of the serious ultra runners are doing those events, not this one. That being said, very cool for her.
- steve_gh 7y ago
  Sierre Zinal is a pretty short race - it's only 31km. Serious ultra runners run a variety of distances, including the very long ones such as the UTMB (160km) and the Tor des Geants (340km). Earlier this year Jasmine Parris won the Spine race (the UK's best known very long ultra: 400km along the Pennine Way in January). Not only did she break the overall course record by 12hrs, she also beat the previous year's winner (Eugeni Sole), who was evacuated off the last hill, 6km from the end, while in 2nd place. Allez les filles! Steve (edit: spelling)

nsndnd 7y ago

What's the length of the run? 50k could refer to 50km, yet, ultra usually refers to longer runs like 100km - 50 miles are 80km, so what would make more sense. Judging by the time per mile they state in the article, it's 50km.

have_faith 7y ago
Ultra refers to runs longer than a conventional marathon (42km~). 50km is generally the starting point for the ultra distance though and 100km is a more common benchmark.

rraghur 7y ago

Wasn't there a mexican tribe where they run marathons all the time? IIRC, a woman from the tribe participated and won an ultra marathon hands down (and wearing slippers made of tyres or something like that) Found it - https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_311854.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_31...

croon 7y ago
The same tribe detailed in the book "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall that was very popular a few years ago.
- comicjk 7y ago
  The book that led to the runner's fracture in my left foot. Note to future readers who tend to overdo things: we may be born to run, but not on concrete.
  - frereubu 7y ago
    I came to this conclusion after trying to run in Vivo Barefoot shoes on tarmac (thankfully without the extra prompt of an injury). The technique he describes - avoiding heel strike and running on the balls of your feet to allow your Achilles tendon / calf to provide spring - is a good one, but it's just as effective in cushioned running shoes. I do wish running shoes had wider toe boxes like the Vivo ones though.
    - hnlion 7y ago
      That's where Altra's come in. Wide toe box, zero drop, but cushioned.
      - frereubu 7y ago
        Thanks, will take a look.
    - 7y ago

Cenk 7y ago

> “I ended up taking both awards—the overall winner and the first place female,” Pell said. “I felt bad that the first place man didn’t have one, so I tried to convince them to blot out the ‘fe’ on ‘female’, but they said to just keep both trophies. It was pretty funny.”

ultrarunner 7y ago
That's just an incompetent race director. There is no end to the lack of thought put into award schedules. I once got three (cheap plastic) medals for winning various categories that all overlapped during an awards ceremony that went on way too long. I suspect that this is the same (boring) situation, but runner's world being the garbage magazine that they are figured they could push the sociopolitical angle and get more clicks.

jonwinstanley 7y ago

She didn't win the 'Male' trophy, she won the winner's trophy and the 'First Female' trophy.

giancarlostoro 7y ago
The whole article is confusing. > Unfortunately, while there was an award made for the first place female, there was no award prepared for the first place male. Instead, there was only a trophy for the overall winner, which was predicted to be a man. What the heck? This confusing logic is all throughout the article.
- mkl 7y ago
  Those sentences make complete sense to me. What's the problem?
- reportgunner 7y ago
  Yeah wtf is a "male" trophy ?
  - drakonka 7y ago
    The same thing that the "female" trophy (which they had) is, but for the first male...
    - tux1968 7y ago
      No, there is no male trophy. If there were it wouldn't have been given to a woman, it would have been given to the fastest male (even though he didn't come first). There is a winner trophy, and a fastest-female trophy. She won both.
      - castis 7y ago
        I believe thats what drakonka is saying.
    - 7y ago

EdwardDiego 7y ago

Entirely unsurprised. There's various reasons why it could be so, e.g., https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6b2b https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6... or https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-men/ https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-men/ What does surprise me though is that the expectation that the winner would be a man.

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ptah 7y ago

another 50 years and the myth of the stronger male will be gone

jhawk28 7y ago
A nice fantasy, but how is biology going to change?
- ptah 7y ago
  not sure, the science has changed considerably since victorian times
  - rimliu 7y ago
    And still science indicates nothing like you claim.
    - ptah 7y ago
      not yet
      - rimliu 7y ago
        Unless the human hormone levels magically switch, it will not change. It may reveal more details on how the physiology works, but it will not change the base arrangement of the things.
        ptah 7y ago
        that's what eugenicists and 1930's science said about black people. science believed that black people would never outperform white people due to genetic differences in leg structure back then
louisswiss 7y ago
If that's true, it'll be because the word "strong" is redefined. I'm genuinely undecided as to whether that's a good thing or not.

oinkgrr 7y ago

An example where we treat men as the default and women as atypical? https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-women_9781419729072/ https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-women_97814197...

davidrm 7y ago

In running, female only trophies follow the same philosophy as age group trophies. Overall winner is reserved for whoever crosses the line first. Then there are M/F age groups for older runners (5y wide age groups most often starting at 30), and "female overall winner". Having male only trophies is most often redundant because 99% of overall winners are male. That's just life. From time to time, an high/elite level female runner shows up when there are no elite male runner and she takes the overall winner. And that only happens in niche races (niche being every race longer than a marathon and some smaller city races). Ultras are also more likely to have DNFs (did not finish). There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner, because both m/f elites show up and men win by a huge margin.

leguminous 7y ago
> There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner [...] It wasn't a major city race and probably had a lot of casual runners, but I ran a half marathon earlier this year with around 20,000 participants. A woman won the overall in 1:18:30. The people who are good at this are just so much better at it than the average person. A fast woman, even if she isn't faster than the fastest men, will still be faster than 99.9+% of them.
- finebalance 7y ago
  >The people who are good at this are just so much better at it than the average person. A fast woman, even if she isn't faster than the fastest men, will still be faster than 99.9+% of them. That's not in doubt. An extremely skilled person will outcompete the field, all other things being equal. Unfortunately, with reference to most sports, all other things aren't equal, which is why good high-school male teams in sports such as soccer can credibly compete with national-level adult female teams.
- davidrm 7y ago
  But 1:18 is far far away from any professional result. That’s actually confirming what I said. I’m friends with two people who can beat that (1:16, 1:15). They have day jobs. That race just wasn’t that competitive, even if it had 20k runners.

fergie 7y ago

There has been a theory going around for a while, supported by a growing body of evidence, that women might actually be better at some endurance events than men. https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=women+better+at+marathons&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=wom... EDIT: POTENTIALLY better obviously, not ACTUALLY better, since currently these events are generally won by men.

StavrosK 7y ago
What can a "growing body of evidence" be, when performance at these events is precisely timed? Either women win or men win.
- comicjk 7y ago
  Race performance measures talent + training. Inasmuch as optimal training for women is less understood than for men, they may have room to improve that doesn't show up in race times. Talent at race time is also socially dependent, because it depends on recruiting, and female athletes may be less likely to be discovered. These factors came together in the 1970s to produce a rapid improvement in women's marathon times, while no corresponding drop happened for men's times. While they never caught up to men's, the women's record in 1985 was better than the men's record in 1950.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    I see, so it's less about a growing body of evidence and more about women training better and improving their times. I'm very interested to see whether they will get as good as/better than men in some sports.
jbob2000 7y ago
Marathon/Ultra swimming is one where women do much better. Multiple theories as to why; higher body fat and low bone density makes it easier to float, bigger hips means more buoyancy towards the back of the body when swimming, and/or higher pain tolerance. Men can't get anywhere close to the records that women ultra swimmers set.

growlist 7y ago

The exception that proves the rule.

neilduncan 7y ago

Fiona Kolbinger outright won the most recent Transcontinental bike race, in Europe. 4000km from eastern Bulgaria to northwest France. https://www.transcontinental.cc/report https://www.transcontinental.cc/report

goatinaboat 7y ago

I look forward to the day that gender is removed from the Olympics and the football World Cup. Not only will it be non-sexist it will half the cost of staging it letting poorer countries do it too. A win for everyone.

ultrarunner 7y ago
So back to countries only sending men, then?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

ARandomerDude 7y ago

Sign of the times: I had to look at her picture to see if she was an actual woman.

ryanmcbride 7y ago

Happy for Ellie Pell (aka "Woman" in the article title) Sexism of low expectations. Race director wanted to be sure to include a best in class trophy for women, which is fine, but assumed (incorrectly) that there wouldn't be a need for a best in class trophy for men. Assumed that they'd just get the 'best overall' trophy.

deleted 7y ago
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brippalcharrid 7y ago
> Sexism of low expectations > “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-specific awards,” Ironically, it seems that the race organizer had first set out not to have gender-specific awards at all, but they chose to add the female-specific award to avoid accusations of them marginalizing women's achievements (and being labelled "sexist").

dejaime 7y ago

Title should be "50K ultra organization failed to manufacture a 'male' trophy.", clickbait 100