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The US government isn't abusive to its people though.

by egdod 7y ago

girvo 7y ago
You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...
- egdod 7y ago
  When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it. Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.
  - pjanoman 7y ago
    Firstly, gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse. But even if you don't think it is, the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value even though it was abusing its citizens.
    - egdod 7y ago
      > gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse No, it isn't. > the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value I never suggested otherwise.
  - adjkant 7y ago
    Police brutality, racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI, and the ignoring of the AIDS crisis come to mind in the past 50 years. The civil rights act didn't magically solve everything. Those are just a few major things, plenty of others to go around.
    - egdod 7y ago
      > Police brutality Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. > racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI Got a link? > ignoring of the AIDS crisis Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government.
      - adamsea 7y ago
        Homie. Chill.
        egdod 7y ago
        I’m chill. I’m also patriotic though, and so I respond when people make snide comments about how horrible and abusive the US is.
      - adjkant 7y ago
        > Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. When the justice department does not enact the punishments for the laws they set, it is absolutely government abuse. Authority is authority, and people rarely use it uniformly. All are government action unless actual steps are taken to punish it. > Got a link? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_coca... https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/allegationsofcia00unit.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hear... And then combine that with the sentencing differences between crack cocaine and cocaine (same drug, vastly different punishments). You can also look at the legal treatment of opioids and the origins of marijuana laws (originally targeting mexicans) http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war > Research shows that prosecutors are twice as likely to pursue a mandatory minimum sentence for black people as for white people charged with the same offense. Among people who received a mandatory minimum sentence in 2011, 38% were Latino and 31% were black. Again, the justice department's actions are government actions. Absolutely abuse of citizens. > Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government. Not that scare really, first of all. Secondly, resource allocation is a powerful tool that's literally used to strongarm other countries and across world politics. The action does not define abuse, the effect of the action does (in my book at least). Letting thousands die because it is affecting a minority population is an abusive policy. To take this to an extreme, food is a scarce resource, so if the US made a law saying X people don't get food, that would 100% be abuse. Now that's nowhere near the same thing, but it shows that again, the effect defines abuse, not the action. -------------------------------------- I think the latter two come down to a fundamental difference in the definition of abuse. If you use a literal model of an army physically hurting people then sure. And it's not the exact same thing - nowhere did I say HK = USA. But your first comment got the reaction it did because it appeared to sweep a lot of the US's less than ideal history under the rug for the revisionist "Well post slavery/civil rights everything was great!".
  - mycall 7y ago
    https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-rule-our-lives-and-why-we-dont-talk-about-it https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-ru... While private government isn't US government, they are very much interlaced, pair-evolving and authoritarian being governments.
    - egdod 7y ago
      That’s an interesting theory. But you’re right—it isn’t the US government, so it’s not really germane.
mycall 7y ago
How do you define abusive?

The US government isn't abusive to its people though.

by egdod 7y ago

The US government isn't abusive to its people though.

You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...

egdod 7y ago
When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it. Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.
- pjanoman 7y ago
  Firstly, gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse. But even if you don't think it is, the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value even though it was abusing its citizens.
  - egdod 7y ago
    > gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse No, it isn't. > the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value I never suggested otherwise.
- adjkant 7y ago
  Police brutality, racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI, and the ignoring of the AIDS crisis come to mind in the past 50 years. The civil rights act didn't magically solve everything. Those are just a few major things, plenty of others to go around.
  - egdod 7y ago
    > Police brutality Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. > racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI Got a link? > ignoring of the AIDS crisis Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government.
    - adamsea 7y ago
      Homie. Chill.
      - egdod 7y ago
        I’m chill. I’m also patriotic though, and so I respond when people make snide comments about how horrible and abusive the US is.
    - adjkant 7y ago
      > Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. When the justice department does not enact the punishments for the laws they set, it is absolutely government abuse. Authority is authority, and people rarely use it uniformly. All are government action unless actual steps are taken to punish it. > Got a link? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_coca... https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/allegationsofcia00unit.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hear... And then combine that with the sentencing differences between crack cocaine and cocaine (same drug, vastly different punishments). You can also look at the legal treatment of opioids and the origins of marijuana laws (originally targeting mexicans) http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war > Research shows that prosecutors are twice as likely to pursue a mandatory minimum sentence for black people as for white people charged with the same offense. Among people who received a mandatory minimum sentence in 2011, 38% were Latino and 31% were black. Again, the justice department's actions are government actions. Absolutely abuse of citizens. > Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government. Not that scare really, first of all. Secondly, resource allocation is a powerful tool that's literally used to strongarm other countries and across world politics. The action does not define abuse, the effect of the action does (in my book at least). Letting thousands die because it is affecting a minority population is an abusive policy. To take this to an extreme, food is a scarce resource, so if the US made a law saying X people don't get food, that would 100% be abuse. Now that's nowhere near the same thing, but it shows that again, the effect defines abuse, not the action. -------------------------------------- I think the latter two come down to a fundamental difference in the definition of abuse. If you use a literal model of an army physically hurting people then sure. And it's not the exact same thing - nowhere did I say HK = USA. But your first comment got the reaction it did because it appeared to sweep a lot of the US's less than ideal history under the rug for the revisionist "Well post slavery/civil rights everything was great!".
- mycall 7y ago
  https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-rule-our-lives-and-why-we-dont-talk-about-it https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-ru... While private government isn't US government, they are very much interlaced, pair-evolving and authoritarian being governments.
  - egdod 7y ago
    That’s an interesting theory. But you’re right—it isn’t the US government, so it’s not really germane.

mycall 7y ago

How do you define abusive?