3 ms·

Safe treatment? Great. How about obtaining informed consent first?

wysifnwyg 7y ago
If you don't like how a water treatment plant operates, you could always dig your own well or purchase a water filter to remove the fluoride.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  The suggestion to "dig your own well" suggests your comment is not entirely in good faith, but I'll respond as if it is. Plenty of people do filter fluoride from their tap water or source non-fluoridated water for drinking. The problem is that the mainstream population is led to believe that one has to be stupid to think fluoride might carry any health risks, and therefore stupid to take steps to reduce/avoid fluoride. As someone who was raised in mainstream society by educated, scientifically-minded people, and educated/interested in science myself, I held this assumption, right up until I was given very real cause to question it. Several years ago I started experiencing a complex combination of physiological impairments, including fatigue, memory/cognition problems, mood issues (depression/anxiety), digestion problems, immune-system dysfunction, among others. After much research and testing, my thyroid function has been identified as a key factor in my illness. Research on this topic has led me to multiple studies indicating that fluoride ingestion is linked to thyroid impairment. A recent study [1], published in Scientific Reports, affirms that hypothesis, but there are many others. (Incidentally, thyroid function has been linked to IQ [2][3], so this phenomenon could well be linked to the results of the study under discussion in this thread.) I'm currently undertaking a process to seek to remove accumulated fluoride from my body and raise my iodine level (of which fluoride is an antagonist, but which is an essential nutrient for thyroid function). Time will tell if this held to bring about the desired result. But the thing is, people who aggressively and reflexively dismiss any doubts about the safety of fluoride aren't interested in seeking and dispassionately examining studies like these, which suggests their motives are far more ideological than they are scientific. Meanwhile, countless people suffer with undiagnosed or “incurable” thyroid disorders and related conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome, and are made to believe they should “just try harder” or “stop pretending to be sick”. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29757392 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29757392 [3] https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020p115 https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020p115
  - wysifnwyg 7y ago
    As I said, if you don't like it, you can buy a filter or not participate in the service. You're free to do whatever you want!
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      Yes, I do that. Your comment doesn't address my point, and comes across as facetious. My point is that people who flippantly dismiss concerns over fluoride safety are not dispassionately examining the scientific research, and thus are motivated by ideology, not science. Meanwhile, many people who could benefit from reducing their exposure to fluoride don't do so, because the official government/medical establishment line is that fluoride is perfectly safe for everyone and seeking to avoid/reduce exposure to it is unnecessary and stupid. This continues to be the case despite a solid body of evidence that fluoride maybe a contributor to thyroid illness, a problem that causes a huge amount of chronic suffering for a huge number of people. It's a serious issue that deserves better than the flippancy your comments exhibit.
      - wysifnwyg 7y ago
        I've taken a look at the statistics presented here and mathmatically there isn't a statistically significant link between their groups. Are you suggesting there is?
        tomhoward 7y ago
        If you're talking about the first link [0]: the conclusion of that study stated: The major finding of this study is that TSH values are higher with a higher fluoride concentration in the drinking water, even for generally low fluoride concentrations. This is seen both in cases of untreated hypothyroidism and in controls. ... cases tend to have higher TSH values (greater impairment of thyroid function) with higher fluoride concentrations in the water. Controls, with normal thyroid function, also have higher TSH values with higher fluoride concentrations, even though their TSH values are still within the normal range. Table 2 illustrates the effect, showing a markedly increased level of TSH among people with an existing thyroid illness. Do you dispute that finding? I spent about 10 minutes looking up other studies on the topic, and pasted them here [1]. The first three found significant links between fluoride intake, iodine level and thyroid function. The fourth study found a link between thyroid disorder and water fluoridation in different regions in the U.K., and included comparisons between fluoridated and non-fluoridated water areas. The fifth, from Canada, claimed to contradict that U.K. study, however from reading the study in detail, it doesn't seem they compared fluoridated areas with non-fluoridated areas, and it's not clear there was a significant variance in fluoridation levels in the water samples tested. But it also didn't specifically look at the effects of fluoride intake on people with pre-existing thyroid disorders, the way the first study I referred to [0] did. Having read and contemplated these studies, my take is that it’s probably the case that ordinary municipal water fluoridation is fine for people with healthily functioning thyroids and healthy levels of iodine. However for people with low iodine and/or existing thyroid illness (which is likely to be largely the same group of people, given how crucial iodine is to thyroid function), municipal water fluoridation may exacerbate the illness, and impede recovery if/when diagnosis is made and treatment commenced. Can you point to anything unscientific about what I've said, or about my decision to minimise fluoride intake, given that I know I have low iodine and that related thyroid impairment has been a major factor in my many-years-long debilitating health condition? [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ [1] https://pastebin.com/KGiUBYLv https://pastebin.com/KGiUBYLv

If you don't like how a water treatment plant operates, you could always dig your own well or purchase a water filter to remove the fluoride.

tomhoward 7y ago
The suggestion to "dig your own well" suggests your comment is not entirely in good faith, but I'll respond as if it is. Plenty of people do filter fluoride from their tap water or source non-fluoridated water for drinking. The problem is that the mainstream population is led to believe that one has to be stupid to think fluoride might carry any health risks, and therefore stupid to take steps to reduce/avoid fluoride. As someone who was raised in mainstream society by educated, scientifically-minded people, and educated/interested in science myself, I held this assumption, right up until I was given very real cause to question it. Several years ago I started experiencing a complex combination of physiological impairments, including fatigue, memory/cognition problems, mood issues (depression/anxiety), digestion problems, immune-system dysfunction, among others. After much research and testing, my thyroid function has been identified as a key factor in my illness. Research on this topic has led me to multiple studies indicating that fluoride ingestion is linked to thyroid impairment. A recent study [1], published in Scientific Reports, affirms that hypothesis, but there are many others. (Incidentally, thyroid function has been linked to IQ [2][3], so this phenomenon could well be linked to the results of the study under discussion in this thread.) I'm currently undertaking a process to seek to remove accumulated fluoride from my body and raise my iodine level (of which fluoride is an antagonist, but which is an essential nutrient for thyroid function). Time will tell if this held to bring about the desired result. But the thing is, people who aggressively and reflexively dismiss any doubts about the safety of fluoride aren't interested in seeking and dispassionately examining studies like these, which suggests their motives are far more ideological than they are scientific. Meanwhile, countless people suffer with undiagnosed or “incurable” thyroid disorders and related conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome, and are made to believe they should “just try harder” or “stop pretending to be sick”. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29757392 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29757392 [3] https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020p115 https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020p115
- wysifnwyg 7y ago
  As I said, if you don't like it, you can buy a filter or not participate in the service. You're free to do whatever you want!
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Yes, I do that. Your comment doesn't address my point, and comes across as facetious. My point is that people who flippantly dismiss concerns over fluoride safety are not dispassionately examining the scientific research, and thus are motivated by ideology, not science. Meanwhile, many people who could benefit from reducing their exposure to fluoride don't do so, because the official government/medical establishment line is that fluoride is perfectly safe for everyone and seeking to avoid/reduce exposure to it is unnecessary and stupid. This continues to be the case despite a solid body of evidence that fluoride maybe a contributor to thyroid illness, a problem that causes a huge amount of chronic suffering for a huge number of people. It's a serious issue that deserves better than the flippancy your comments exhibit.
    - wysifnwyg 7y ago
      I've taken a look at the statistics presented here and mathmatically there isn't a statistically significant link between their groups. Are you suggesting there is?
      - tomhoward 7y ago
        If you're talking about the first link [0]: the conclusion of that study stated: The major finding of this study is that TSH values are higher with a higher fluoride concentration in the drinking water, even for generally low fluoride concentrations. This is seen both in cases of untreated hypothyroidism and in controls. ... cases tend to have higher TSH values (greater impairment of thyroid function) with higher fluoride concentrations in the water. Controls, with normal thyroid function, also have higher TSH values with higher fluoride concentrations, even though their TSH values are still within the normal range. Table 2 illustrates the effect, showing a markedly increased level of TSH among people with an existing thyroid illness. Do you dispute that finding? I spent about 10 minutes looking up other studies on the topic, and pasted them here [1]. The first three found significant links between fluoride intake, iodine level and thyroid function. The fourth study found a link between thyroid disorder and water fluoridation in different regions in the U.K., and included comparisons between fluoridated and non-fluoridated water areas. The fifth, from Canada, claimed to contradict that U.K. study, however from reading the study in detail, it doesn't seem they compared fluoridated areas with non-fluoridated areas, and it's not clear there was a significant variance in fluoridation levels in the water samples tested. But it also didn't specifically look at the effects of fluoride intake on people with pre-existing thyroid disorders, the way the first study I referred to [0] did. Having read and contemplated these studies, my take is that it’s probably the case that ordinary municipal water fluoridation is fine for people with healthily functioning thyroids and healthy levels of iodine. However for people with low iodine and/or existing thyroid illness (which is likely to be largely the same group of people, given how crucial iodine is to thyroid function), municipal water fluoridation may exacerbate the illness, and impede recovery if/when diagnosis is made and treatment commenced. Can you point to anything unscientific about what I've said, or about my decision to minimise fluoride intake, given that I know I have low iodine and that related thyroid impairment has been a major factor in my many-years-long debilitating health condition? [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/ [1] https://pastebin.com/KGiUBYLv https://pastebin.com/KGiUBYLv