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"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10

"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10 years in China with businesses in China and Hong Kong, is that it is useful to think about Hong Kong similarly to a USA state. It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get permission to enter Hong Kong. So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides. But from a bigger picture, Hong Kong is not anymore entitled to complete self-governance apart from China's oversight than California is entitled to act against the US federal government. Very few Americans would support any US State in the Union to exit the Union. And, Chinese nationals do not support it for their own Country's territories. About your extra thoughts that China is "is demonstrably a country with little freedoms afforded to its people". Every place has its majority and minority viewpoint, and what you are saying here is at best a fringe minority viewpoint in China. On the whole, the Chinese majority does not welcome your pity in regards to their systems. They are amazed at the shitshow they see about USA violence and political machinations. They see marches on Portland Oregon with Antifa on the left and whoever on the far right and think, China has it good, and in many ways, they are correct. Violent crime as measured in murders per 100K of population in the USA is a magnitude worse than in China, the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA. I've walked down dark streets at night all over working class neighborhoods in Guangdong province and never once felt unsafe. At nighttime, there are huge crowds in public squares, sometimes with hundreds of women dancing coordinated to music, and there is no fear. I've done the same in large cities like Shanghai, going where I please at midnight, with no feeling of danger. That's what they value here and it brings a type of freedom that you can't enjoy in the USA. Chinese do not share the same values as you, and from my view, that's OK.

Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
I understand that Chinese values are different from mine, and I appreciate the importance of that. I'm not arguing for, for example, the overthrow of the communist party in mainland China. However, as much as you wouldn't impose American values on China, I wouldn't want to see Chinese values imposed on Hong Kong. HKers clearly do not share those values. Setting aside the HK question, I would also like to point out that there are dozens of countries which are not as violent as America but have governments of the people. I'm writing my comment now from Osaka, Japan, where the streets are clean, the people are safe, there's excellent public transit throughout the country, etc - and the government rules at the pleasure of its people. Edit: because it's important in discussions such as these, I sought out information about you to judge your biases. I found that you're the founder of a company that arguably lives and dies by mainland China having a favorable view of you.
- bobjordan 7y ago
  Haha, I'd rather you would have seen me in the Chinese police station last year, absolutely furious and further raising hell in a yelling match with the local Chief of Police after he raised his voice at my Chinese partner. Had a similar experience when my Chinese resident permit was delayed for a dumb reason, causing me to miss my daughter's high school graduation in the USA. I'm not afraid to say exactly what I think when it needs said, and I've said what I truly think here.
  - FDSGSG 7y ago
    So you're essentially bragging about how you're kind of a big deal and above the local cops? Am I misinterpreting your comment?
- dang 7y ago
  > I sought out information about you to judge your biases. I found that you're... I don't know how you could think that it's ok to pull a move like that on HN, but it's not ok. Specifically, checking up on and bringing in someone's personal circumstances, which they didn't choose to mention, in order to use them as ammunition an argument is not ok on HN. Please don't do that. I'm glad that you didn't publish the details, which would have been even worse, but that also means that what you wrote there is just an insinuation.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
    The information is in their profile, just one click away and you don't even have to leave HN. Don't you think we ought to be vigilant of these biases when discussing the very matter of whether or not these biases are subverting the discussion?
    - dang 7y ago
      Even if it's one click away, it isn't your prerogative to cross the line and introduce it as ammunition in an argument. That way lies significant degradation of the community, and I'm surprised that you stooped to it here. Please don't.
mirimir 7y ago
> But from a bigger picture, Hong Kong is not anymore entitled to complete self-governance apart from China's oversight than California is entitled to act against the US federal government. Except that California has "act[ed] against the US federal government" for years, regarding marijuana. As have several other states. I do agree, however, that Hong Kong represents a far stranger situation. From a traditional Chinese perspective, it likely appears that Hong Kong was "corrupted" by years of British governance. And I can appreciate how that shows up as British occupation. Just as it did in India etc.
mb_72 7y ago
> the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA I would be more likely to believe crime statistics published by the US government than the Chinese government. > That's what they value here and it brings a type of freedom that you can't enjoy in the USA. Well, that would be a single freedom, if those statistics are to be believed, that China apparently has that the USA doesn't. I would much rather have a greater chance of being murdered in a democratic and free society than feeling supposedly 'safer' in a country like China.
spacehunt 7y ago
> It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get permission to enter Hong Kong. This is not 100% true. Setting aside the fact that not all permanent residents in Hong Kong are Chinese nationals, there have been many cases where people have been denied entry into mainland China. But this is a minor point compared to the next point you make: > So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides. As a native HKer this sounds very weird. I'm not sure how the previous point leads to this. Anyways, I know this is how it's portrayed in mainland China, but the current movement is not about creating an independent Hong Kong separated from China. Sadly, most mainland Chinese people have already made up their mind and let their patriotism fuel their hatred towards Hong Kong.
- xster 7y ago
  > So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides. I also don't agree with that point but probably for different reasons. Hong Kong was simply straddled with a half oligarchic system nominally democratic but in actuality structurally setup to be unconcerned with the livelihood of the middle class. While the CCP is at least nominally held to be the steward of the common people's wellbeing, most of the functional constituencies in the legco have no 'fiduciary' responsibility towards the average Hong Kong person. Seats like Insurance and Financial Services aren't even voted on by the insurance or fintech workers but by the corresponding corporate monopolies in the unregulated market. These oligarchs also have no interest in any of Tung Chee-hwa's economic reforms that might have helped Hong Kong's workers bridge though China's declining need for Hong Kong as a trade funnel and the present social stagnation and 20% poverty rate. That's 20 times the poverty rate of mainland China.
  - spacehunt 7y ago
    Another reason for the lack of economic reforms is that many people in Hong Kong have drunk the free market fundamentalism kool-aid for so long that they actually believe it's the reason for Hong Kong's past success. What ended up happening of course is that markets don't have level playing fields anymore.
lawrenceyan 7y ago
Is your perspective that as long as you aren’t personally targeted and can make money, it doesn’t really matter what the government does? You talk a lot about how nice/safe it is for you personally as you enjoy the benefits of living in China as an expat, but at the same time, you do have to realize that your current situation is one of extraordinary privilege and not necessarily representative of the reality for vast swathes of people in China today right? For example, the things being done to Chinese people by the government in places like Xin Jiang right now. You might not personally be seeing it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I don’t mean to disparage you or the choices that you’ve made as I’m sure there are many complex reasons for why you’ve ended up where you are currently. I would urge you though, to think more deeply and consider your actions with the perspective that as someone with the privilege and ability to be able to freely leave the country and speak out against the government without being silenced/jailed, you are in a unique position to make an impact that a native Chinese citizen might not necessarily have. Personally, as an American with parents that originally grew up in China, I know that I have a great amount of privilege in being able to freely talk about these issues that many of my international student peers in college are unable to express for fear of the consequences they might incur. That’s why for me, I feel like my privilege comes with a certain amount of responsibility to speak out. Your status as an expat puts you in a similar level/position to be able to provide a voice for those that otherwise might never be able to freely express themselves.
- bobjordan 7y ago
  There is a lot of virtue-signaling going on here, but understanding the state of today's USA education systems, I'll try to parse it. > Is your perspective that as long as you aren’t personally targeted and can make money, it doesn’t really matter what the government does? [Bob]: No. My perspective is that of a person who spent their first 32-years in America, who one day about a decade ago during the depths of the economic downturn, decided to try to eat the dogfood of living and operating a bootstrapped business in China so that I could better understand it and the world I live in. > You talk a lot about how nice/safe it is for you personally as you enjoy the benefits of living in China as an expat, but at the same time, you do have to realize that your current situation is one of extraordinary privilege and not necessarily representative of the reality for vast swathes of people in China today right? [Bob]: I'm not claiming it is particularly safe for me alone. The feeling is one of an environment of general safety. As in, lack of violent crime. A Country where, on innumerable local blocks across its many cities, there are instances of thousands of people in public squares at night, enjoying things like group song and dance. You don't see that everywhere in the USA. I do realize, there may be many non-Han Chinese communities I'm not exposed to where the freedom to express themselves is not so great. > Your status as an expat puts you in a similar level/position to be able to provide a voice for those that otherwise might never be able to freely express themselves. [Bob]: No, unfortunately, my status as an expat doesn't give me any particular right to speak for its citizens, nor impune myself in the business of China's governance of its citizens. I'm here as a guest in China. China reminds me of that every year when I go through the month-long process to renew my resident and work permit. Anyway, guests don't go to someone else's house and tell them how to run it. But, I fully support your own free speech rights to say anything you want about China or the governance of its peoples. That said, there are plenty of things I don't like about being in China. Being here has led me to change my views on many issues, versus my views from a decade ago. Previously, I was far left in viewpoint for the times. Such as, I held the view America should nationalize the banking system. While that still may have been the right call, overall, after a decade of bureaucracy, I'm no fan of big government. And now, I'm a much more rabid proponent of American's protecting their free speech and privacy, at all costs. Otherwise, it's a slippery slope to end up with what they've got here in China.
Retric 7y ago
> Violent crime as measured in murders per 100K of population in the USA is a magnitude worse than in China, the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA. Assuming you believe the State statistics that could be true. However, their is plenty of evidence many official numbers are manipulated and this is likely to be one of them. Which is the issue, even people living in China really have no idea what the Chinese populous thinks about most things. When people fear to speak the truth, what you hear has little to do with what they think. Private comments are frequently at odds with public statements.

Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago

I understand that Chinese values are different from mine, and I appreciate the importance of that. I'm not arguing for, for example, the overthrow of the communist party in mainland China. However, as much as you wouldn't impose American values on China, I wouldn't want to see Chinese values imposed on Hong Kong. HKers clearly do not share those values. Setting aside the HK question, I would also like to point out that there are dozens of countries which are not as violent as America but have governments of the people. I'm writing my comment now from Osaka, Japan, where the streets are clean, the people are safe, there's excellent public transit throughout the country, etc - and the government rules at the pleasure of its people. Edit: because it's important in discussions such as these, I sought out information about you to judge your biases. I found that you're the founder of a company that arguably lives and dies by mainland China having a favorable view of you.

bobjordan 7y ago
Haha, I'd rather you would have seen me in the Chinese police station last year, absolutely furious and further raising hell in a yelling match with the local Chief of Police after he raised his voice at my Chinese partner. Had a similar experience when my Chinese resident permit was delayed for a dumb reason, causing me to miss my daughter's high school graduation in the USA. I'm not afraid to say exactly what I think when it needs said, and I've said what I truly think here.
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  So you're essentially bragging about how you're kind of a big deal and above the local cops? Am I misinterpreting your comment?
dang 7y ago
> I sought out information about you to judge your biases. I found that you're... I don't know how you could think that it's ok to pull a move like that on HN, but it's not ok. Specifically, checking up on and bringing in someone's personal circumstances, which they didn't choose to mention, in order to use them as ammunition an argument is not ok on HN. Please don't do that. I'm glad that you didn't publish the details, which would have been even worse, but that also means that what you wrote there is just an insinuation.
- Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
  The information is in their profile, just one click away and you don't even have to leave HN. Don't you think we ought to be vigilant of these biases when discussing the very matter of whether or not these biases are subverting the discussion?
  - dang 7y ago
    Even if it's one click away, it isn't your prerogative to cross the line and introduce it as ammunition in an argument. That way lies significant degradation of the community, and I'm surprised that you stooped to it here. Please don't.

mirimir 7y ago

> But from a bigger picture, Hong Kong is not anymore entitled to complete self-governance apart from China's oversight than California is entitled to act against the US federal government. Except that California has "act[ed] against the US federal government" for years, regarding marijuana. As have several other states. I do agree, however, that Hong Kong represents a far stranger situation. From a traditional Chinese perspective, it likely appears that Hong Kong was "corrupted" by years of British governance. And I can appreciate how that shows up as British occupation. Just as it did in India etc.

mb_72 7y ago

> the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA I would be more likely to believe crime statistics published by the US government than the Chinese government. > That's what they value here and it brings a type of freedom that you can't enjoy in the USA. Well, that would be a single freedom, if those statistics are to be believed, that China apparently has that the USA doesn't. I would much rather have a greater chance of being murdered in a democratic and free society than feeling supposedly 'safer' in a country like China.

spacehunt 7y ago

> It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get permission to enter Hong Kong. This is not 100% true. Setting aside the fact that not all permanent residents in Hong Kong are Chinese nationals, there have been many cases where people have been denied entry into mainland China. But this is a minor point compared to the next point you make: > So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides. As a native HKer this sounds very weird. I'm not sure how the previous point leads to this. Anyways, I know this is how it's portrayed in mainland China, but the current movement is not about creating an independent Hong Kong separated from China. Sadly, most mainland Chinese people have already made up their mind and let their patriotism fuel their hatred towards Hong Kong.

xster 7y ago
> So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides. I also don't agree with that point but probably for different reasons. Hong Kong was simply straddled with a half oligarchic system nominally democratic but in actuality structurally setup to be unconcerned with the livelihood of the middle class. While the CCP is at least nominally held to be the steward of the common people's wellbeing, most of the functional constituencies in the legco have no 'fiduciary' responsibility towards the average Hong Kong person. Seats like Insurance and Financial Services aren't even voted on by the insurance or fintech workers but by the corresponding corporate monopolies in the unregulated market. These oligarchs also have no interest in any of Tung Chee-hwa's economic reforms that might have helped Hong Kong's workers bridge though China's declining need for Hong Kong as a trade funnel and the present social stagnation and 20% poverty rate. That's 20 times the poverty rate of mainland China.
- spacehunt 7y ago
  Another reason for the lack of economic reforms is that many people in Hong Kong have drunk the free market fundamentalism kool-aid for so long that they actually believe it's the reason for Hong Kong's past success. What ended up happening of course is that markets don't have level playing fields anymore.

lawrenceyan 7y ago

Is your perspective that as long as you aren’t personally targeted and can make money, it doesn’t really matter what the government does? You talk a lot about how nice/safe it is for you personally as you enjoy the benefits of living in China as an expat, but at the same time, you do have to realize that your current situation is one of extraordinary privilege and not necessarily representative of the reality for vast swathes of people in China today right? For example, the things being done to Chinese people by the government in places like Xin Jiang right now. You might not personally be seeing it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I don’t mean to disparage you or the choices that you’ve made as I’m sure there are many complex reasons for why you’ve ended up where you are currently. I would urge you though, to think more deeply and consider your actions with the perspective that as someone with the privilege and ability to be able to freely leave the country and speak out against the government without being silenced/jailed, you are in a unique position to make an impact that a native Chinese citizen might not necessarily have. Personally, as an American with parents that originally grew up in China, I know that I have a great amount of privilege in being able to freely talk about these issues that many of my international student peers in college are unable to express for fear of the consequences they might incur. That’s why for me, I feel like my privilege comes with a certain amount of responsibility to speak out. Your status as an expat puts you in a similar level/position to be able to provide a voice for those that otherwise might never be able to freely express themselves.

bobjordan 7y ago
There is a lot of virtue-signaling going on here, but understanding the state of today's USA education systems, I'll try to parse it. > Is your perspective that as long as you aren’t personally targeted and can make money, it doesn’t really matter what the government does? [Bob]: No. My perspective is that of a person who spent their first 32-years in America, who one day about a decade ago during the depths of the economic downturn, decided to try to eat the dogfood of living and operating a bootstrapped business in China so that I could better understand it and the world I live in. > You talk a lot about how nice/safe it is for you personally as you enjoy the benefits of living in China as an expat, but at the same time, you do have to realize that your current situation is one of extraordinary privilege and not necessarily representative of the reality for vast swathes of people in China today right? [Bob]: I'm not claiming it is particularly safe for me alone. The feeling is one of an environment of general safety. As in, lack of violent crime. A Country where, on innumerable local blocks across its many cities, there are instances of thousands of people in public squares at night, enjoying things like group song and dance. You don't see that everywhere in the USA. I do realize, there may be many non-Han Chinese communities I'm not exposed to where the freedom to express themselves is not so great. > Your status as an expat puts you in a similar level/position to be able to provide a voice for those that otherwise might never be able to freely express themselves. [Bob]: No, unfortunately, my status as an expat doesn't give me any particular right to speak for its citizens, nor impune myself in the business of China's governance of its citizens. I'm here as a guest in China. China reminds me of that every year when I go through the month-long process to renew my resident and work permit. Anyway, guests don't go to someone else's house and tell them how to run it. But, I fully support your own free speech rights to say anything you want about China or the governance of its peoples. That said, there are plenty of things I don't like about being in China. Being here has led me to change my views on many issues, versus my views from a decade ago. Previously, I was far left in viewpoint for the times. Such as, I held the view America should nationalize the banking system. While that still may have been the right call, overall, after a decade of bureaucracy, I'm no fan of big government. And now, I'm a much more rabid proponent of American's protecting their free speech and privacy, at all costs. Otherwise, it's a slippery slope to end up with what they've got here in China.

Retric 7y ago

> Violent crime as measured in murders per 100K of population in the USA is a magnitude worse than in China, the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA. Assuming you believe the State statistics that could be true. However, their is plenty of evidence many official numbers are manipulated and this is likely to be one of them. Which is the issue, even people living in China really have no idea what the Chinese populous thinks about most things. When people fear to speak the truth, what you hear has little to do with what they think. Private comments are frequently at odds with public statements.