6 ms·

Woz is an absolutely stunningly good hardware designer and programmer, but I agree with this article's characterization that Jobs, had Woz not been around, woul

Woz is an absolutely stunningly good hardware designer and programmer, but I agree with this article's characterization that Jobs, had Woz not been around, would have found another Woz. Maybe not as good, and maybe with less success, but Apple would have been built in some fashion. The impression I got from Founders At Work was that Woz was a big big reason for Apple's short term success, but also didn't really understand Apple past a certain point. After all, a product like the iPhone, with its fused body and minimal hackability is utterly opposite to the values of an old school hardware hacker like Woz.

wslh 7y ago
> Maybe not as good, and maybe with less success, but Apple would have been built in some fashion. I think different: not saying that I am right but I think in an alternative reality without Woz the time window for building a company like Apple would not exist. Apple exists because of all the rare events happening early on that where capitalized later. We can apply the same thinking to unique companies like Microsoft or Google where even the amazing capabilities of their founders and employees need a rare seed and specific time to be seeded.
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  > I think different Nice. > Apple exists because of all the rare events happening early on that where capitalized later. That's definitely true. I'm not sure if the same early Apple stuff would have happened. But I could see post 90's Apple still happening in some fashion, especially if Jobs was truly able to con(vince) people into giving him funding via the reality distortion field. Jobs would probably have had to work his way up a little slower, but I could see him by the 90's as a kinda cult tech figure, respected enough that he could really work the VC funding circuit.
  - crtlaltdel 7y ago
    if we are throwing theory around, maybe not having Woz would have caused Jobs to work even harder to make "the thing". maybe apple would have never cut Jobs. maybe OSX would never have been born. maybe Apple was then sold to Oracle after Microsoft released "mPhone Home Edition"... ...why not?
    - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
      Haha completely fair. This is completely speculative fiction :D
chubbyrabbit 7y ago
He didn't make the transition to executive management like most big tech founder did. Also the first iPhone was released 30 years after the Apple 1, that's several generations in terms of technological advancement. Bill and Paul were no longer at Microsoft 30 years after the first Windows release. Google is barely 20 years old.
- cybersnowflake 7y ago
  'Most'? Woz is actually pretty lucky, he's appreciated, people know what he did, and he's fairly wealthy. When it comes to successful Hands and Faces, the Hands more often end up like Kildall or one of an even more anonymous faceless team that did all the work but will never be known.
  - chubbyrabbit 7y ago
    Yes, Woz is one of my all times favourites.
mempko 7y ago
It's also possible, without Woz, that Steve would have ended up on a farm somewhere being a hippie. What Woz gave him was an experience into a world he otherwise would not have known. Like all great successes. Steve was at the right place, at the right time.
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  Perhaps. This article makes a good point about Jobs’ underlying intensity and competitiveness. Somehow I’m not so sure the guy who stole 4K from his friend would have been satisfied living on a commune. The hippy stuff makes for a great mythos but dude was as hard core capitalist as they come underneath.
nine_k 7y ago
Well, yes, Jobs was a businessman, his aim was to make a ton of money. So he did. Woz was and is a brilliant technologist, likely he enjoys making machines work. Building a walled garden of high security and low hackability, which started with the original Macintosh, is where their roads must have started to diverge. (For the record, as a person, I would very much prefer to be like Woz than like Jobs, all the billions notwithstanding.)
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> Jobs was a businessman People say this like Jobs didn't also have technical skills. I am not sure where this myth comes from, but Jobs was plenty sharp around technology. Compared to Wozniak, no, but almost no one was. Jobs was every bit of a toolsy hacker that worked from a young age for a computer corporation.
  - nine_k 7y ago
    Definitely so! I'm speaking about the main motivation. That is, e.g. RMS was and maybe is an avid hacker, but most people associate him with his political stance first, and Emacs and GCC a distant second.
mch82 7y ago
Based on the data points of “iWoz”, “Steve Jobs”, “Becoming Steve Jobs”, NeXT, and Pixar my guess is Jobs without Woz does something different, but doesn’t create Apple. The Mac was mostly created without Woz, but the Apple ][ is what paid for the Mac & access to Xerox’s tech. Pixar shows Jobs’ ability to find & develop a team, but the Pixar team is unlikely to have created Apple. NeXT was Job’s attempt to do Apple without Woz and it didn’t work because he missed affordability & efficiency elements Woz excelled at. If iWoz is accurate, Woz created floppy drives, monitors, and a number of other technical firsts. Based on iWoz, a Woz without Jobs keeps working at HP for life and becomes a Jason Kridner (founder of BeagleBone.org) type influencer, which is still exceptionally cool. The other critical factor, that really was clarified in iWoz, is how lucky they were to grow up where & when they did. By a roll of the dice they had access to electronics components that most people in the world never knew existed. They also grew up in an intellectual property environment unencumbered by the 30 years of rules based on companies like HP and Atari not wanting new hires like Woz and Jobs to fork a startup. Modern law and information availability will prevent anyone from ever repeating their successes in the “computer industry”. But people will repeat their success in other industries.
- Aloha 7y ago
  Woz didn't crest floppy drives or monitors, he figured out how to implement them more cheaply.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    Specifically, floppy drive controllers and machine language monitor programs. Also exploited NTSC to do artifact color. All great hacks.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
> but also didn't really understand Apple past a certain point From what I've read over the years, I get the strong impression that Woz, while still genius, was never the same after his plane crash and severe head injuries.

wslh 7y ago

> Maybe not as good, and maybe with less success, but Apple would have been built in some fashion. I think different: not saying that I am right but I think in an alternative reality without Woz the time window for building a company like Apple would not exist. Apple exists because of all the rare events happening early on that where capitalized later. We can apply the same thinking to unique companies like Microsoft or Google where even the amazing capabilities of their founders and employees need a rare seed and specific time to be seeded.

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
> I think different Nice. > Apple exists because of all the rare events happening early on that where capitalized later. That's definitely true. I'm not sure if the same early Apple stuff would have happened. But I could see post 90's Apple still happening in some fashion, especially if Jobs was truly able to con(vince) people into giving him funding via the reality distortion field. Jobs would probably have had to work his way up a little slower, but I could see him by the 90's as a kinda cult tech figure, respected enough that he could really work the VC funding circuit.
- crtlaltdel 7y ago
  if we are throwing theory around, maybe not having Woz would have caused Jobs to work even harder to make "the thing". maybe apple would have never cut Jobs. maybe OSX would never have been born. maybe Apple was then sold to Oracle after Microsoft released "mPhone Home Edition"... ...why not?
  - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
    Haha completely fair. This is completely speculative fiction :D

chubbyrabbit 7y ago

He didn't make the transition to executive management like most big tech founder did. Also the first iPhone was released 30 years after the Apple 1, that's several generations in terms of technological advancement. Bill and Paul were no longer at Microsoft 30 years after the first Windows release. Google is barely 20 years old.

cybersnowflake 7y ago
'Most'? Woz is actually pretty lucky, he's appreciated, people know what he did, and he's fairly wealthy. When it comes to successful Hands and Faces, the Hands more often end up like Kildall or one of an even more anonymous faceless team that did all the work but will never be known.
- chubbyrabbit 7y ago
  Yes, Woz is one of my all times favourites.

mempko 7y ago

It's also possible, without Woz, that Steve would have ended up on a farm somewhere being a hippie. What Woz gave him was an experience into a world he otherwise would not have known. Like all great successes. Steve was at the right place, at the right time.

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Perhaps. This article makes a good point about Jobs’ underlying intensity and competitiveness. Somehow I’m not so sure the guy who stole 4K from his friend would have been satisfied living on a commune. The hippy stuff makes for a great mythos but dude was as hard core capitalist as they come underneath.

nine_k 7y ago

Well, yes, Jobs was a businessman, his aim was to make a ton of money. So he did. Woz was and is a brilliant technologist, likely he enjoys making machines work. Building a walled garden of high security and low hackability, which started with the original Macintosh, is where their roads must have started to diverge. (For the record, as a person, I would very much prefer to be like Woz than like Jobs, all the billions notwithstanding.)

icelancer 7y ago
>> Jobs was a businessman People say this like Jobs didn't also have technical skills. I am not sure where this myth comes from, but Jobs was plenty sharp around technology. Compared to Wozniak, no, but almost no one was. Jobs was every bit of a toolsy hacker that worked from a young age for a computer corporation.
- nine_k 7y ago
  Definitely so! I'm speaking about the main motivation. That is, e.g. RMS was and maybe is an avid hacker, but most people associate him with his political stance first, and Emacs and GCC a distant second.

mch82 7y ago

Based on the data points of “iWoz”, “Steve Jobs”, “Becoming Steve Jobs”, NeXT, and Pixar my guess is Jobs without Woz does something different, but doesn’t create Apple. The Mac was mostly created without Woz, but the Apple ][ is what paid for the Mac & access to Xerox’s tech. Pixar shows Jobs’ ability to find & develop a team, but the Pixar team is unlikely to have created Apple. NeXT was Job’s attempt to do Apple without Woz and it didn’t work because he missed affordability & efficiency elements Woz excelled at. If iWoz is accurate, Woz created floppy drives, monitors, and a number of other technical firsts. Based on iWoz, a Woz without Jobs keeps working at HP for life and becomes a Jason Kridner (founder of BeagleBone.org) type influencer, which is still exceptionally cool. The other critical factor, that really was clarified in iWoz, is how lucky they were to grow up where & when they did. By a roll of the dice they had access to electronics components that most people in the world never knew existed. They also grew up in an intellectual property environment unencumbered by the 30 years of rules based on companies like HP and Atari not wanting new hires like Woz and Jobs to fork a startup. Modern law and information availability will prevent anyone from ever repeating their successes in the “computer industry”. But people will repeat their success in other industries.

Aloha 7y ago
Woz didn't crest floppy drives or monitors, he figured out how to implement them more cheaply.
- ddingus 7y ago
  Specifically, floppy drive controllers and machine language monitor programs. Also exploited NTSC to do artifact color. All great hacks.

AlchemistCamp 7y ago

> but also didn't really understand Apple past a certain point From what I've read over the years, I get the strong impression that Woz, while still genius, was never the same after his plane crash and severe head injuries.