3 ms·

>Collective bargaining means, valuing them about the same (a common agreement means the same outcome for all?) This is a misconception spread by capital to mak

by ahoy 7y ago

>Collective bargaining means, valuing them about the same (a common agreement means the same outcome for all?) This is a misconception spread by capital to make you think unions are going to hurt you. The media company I work for recently unionized. I assure you the junior staff still makes less money than the senior staff. What the union bargaining got wasn't flat wages. What it got was a higher wage floor for new hires, better PTO, more flexible working hours, and a consistent yearly raise/compensation schedule, things like that. No senior employee's work is devalued. The tradeoff isn't between senior and junior workers. It's between workers and owners.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
I'm talking the disparities between 'senior workers'. Putting them all in one hat is exactly the issue. I negotiate my own rate now, and its pretty good.
- danaris 7y ago
  OK, so you can negotiate your own rates, and get a good deal. That suggests that you're a pretty good negotiator. But are you really the best (non-managerial) negotiator in the entire company? Statistically speaking, the odds of that are low. And with a union, you could have the very best negotiating on your behalf. Yes, you'd have to give them all the information—but you have to do that now with your managers, in an adversarial setting, and you could instead do it with the negotiator in a friendly meeting where they're actively working to help you get them the information to get you the best deal. Or, maybe you really are the best negotiator in the area. Wouldn't you like to get some extra pay from the union to be that guy above, and use that negotiating skill on behalf of the rest of the senior workers? (Don't think they'd pay you extra for that? Well, you're the best negotiator around—make it happen!) Or maybe you not only genuinely believe there's no one who could possibly be better than you at negotiating your compensation, but also genuinely don't care that other people have the opportunity to be paid what they're worth, too. In that case, all I can say is I Don’t Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Or, I'm classed as "Senior Programmer III" and get scale for that bucket and that's it. No thanks!
    - danaris 7y ago
      But (and this seems to be something that many people get hung up on about unions) if your field/area doesn't currently have a union, and you form one...the way it operates is going to be determined by you and the other people in your field. So if your field is skilled programmers, why do you think a union formed by you and people like you would insist upon rigid pay scales, rather than pay individually negotiated based on skillset, competency, and demand? Heck, even if there is a national union for your field, if there's no local, you would be in a position to significantly influence what route the local went. And even if there is a local, if you joined it, especially if you're such a good negotiator as you seem to think, why do you think you wouldn't have any pull in determining compensation ceilings?

by ahoy 7y ago

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

I'm talking the disparities between 'senior workers'. Putting them all in one hat is exactly the issue. I negotiate my own rate now, and its pretty good.

danaris 7y ago
OK, so you can negotiate your own rates, and get a good deal. That suggests that you're a pretty good negotiator. But are you really the best (non-managerial) negotiator in the entire company? Statistically speaking, the odds of that are low. And with a union, you could have the very best negotiating on your behalf. Yes, you'd have to give them all the information—but you have to do that now with your managers, in an adversarial setting, and you could instead do it with the negotiator in a friendly meeting where they're actively working to help you get them the information to get you the best deal. Or, maybe you really are the best negotiator in the area. Wouldn't you like to get some extra pay from the union to be that guy above, and use that negotiating skill on behalf of the rest of the senior workers? (Don't think they'd pay you extra for that? Well, you're the best negotiator around—make it happen!) Or maybe you not only genuinely believe there's no one who could possibly be better than you at negotiating your compensation, but also genuinely don't care that other people have the opportunity to be paid what they're worth, too. In that case, all I can say is I Don’t Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Or, I'm classed as "Senior Programmer III" and get scale for that bucket and that's it. No thanks!
  - danaris 7y ago
    But (and this seems to be something that many people get hung up on about unions) if your field/area doesn't currently have a union, and you form one...the way it operates is going to be determined by you and the other people in your field. So if your field is skilled programmers, why do you think a union formed by you and people like you would insist upon rigid pay scales, rather than pay individually negotiated based on skillset, competency, and demand? Heck, even if there is a national union for your field, if there's no local, you would be in a position to significantly influence what route the local went. And even if there is a local, if you joined it, especially if you're such a good negotiator as you seem to think, why do you think you wouldn't have any pull in determining compensation ceilings?