4 ms·

It's much like a HOA or any other political organization. The check and balance is YOU. If you are involved in the Union, and other workers are involved, there

It's much like a HOA or any other political organization. The check and balance is YOU. If you are involved in the Union, and other workers are involved, there is seldom a problem. If like the current U.S. political landscape, people abdicate their responsibilities because it's harder and more work, you end up with less than ideal people in the leadership roles.

brianwawok 7y ago
I was in a condo with like 8 units. Got in the HOA board, because it wasn't that hard (3/8 owners get membership). I could pretty much stop stupid stiff. Now let's say I work for a hypothetical Walmart union. 1 million members or whatever. What can I do to check and balance anything? How can I bet anything except a tool to be used for various warring factions to extract more money from each other.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > What can I do to check and balance anything? How can I bet anything except a tool to be used for various warring factions to extract more money from each other. See also any democratic society.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    But this is why we lean towards a lot of freedom in society.
    - moate 7y ago
      We also lean towards creating plenty of institutions in society. We have regulatory oversight groups. We have law enforcement groups. We have trade organizations and Parent Teacher Associations and lobbying interests and and and.
      - umvi 7y ago
        > We also lean towards creating plenty of institutions in society. Most of which are not democratic. Democracies are extremely inefficient compared to a "dictatorship" where the president of the institution is in charge. You should only switch to a democracy as a last resort due to systemic abuses that can't be resolved any other way. I haven't worked in the games industry, but so far working as a software developer I have not encountered systemic abuses that merit introducing an extremely inefficient democratic oversight system to the company.
        throw0101a 7y ago
        Count yourself fortunately that you had the opportunities to work in better working conditions. The software developers and other creatives in the gaming industry may feel different. In Ontario, Canada, the autoworker unions have been trying to unionize the Toyota plant and have not been successful: the workers always vote 'no'. The works at GM and Ford plants felt differently. Just because you work in a 'good' part of an industry does not mean everyone does.
        umvi 7y ago
        > Just because you work in a 'good' part of an industry does not mean everyone does. Right, but the article in question is arguing: > A union isn’t just right for Vox Media, but for everyone And I'm questioning if it really is. I, for one, don't want yet another democratic system I need to invest time and thought into in order for it to be effective. Local, state, federal government + HOA is enough already. I'm happy with the way the president of past companies I've worked for ran things and I'm glad I didn't have to research union candidates, run for union positions, and/or vote on union issues in my already limited free time.
        moate 7y ago
        That's a lot of assumptions my dude. I don't see who is the "dictator" in your example as it relates to a union shop. You're all small (1 person) dictatorships, but you could also frame it as 1 person democracies? In this situation a systemic abuse is any abuse that happens to you, because you're the entire system? Or this is just a really hard metaphor to work with? I get that you're argument below was "I'm lazy and don't have time to deal with being informed about the issues that would come with a union" but how is that any different from "I'm lazy and don't have time to deal with being informed about all the possible labor abuses my employer is perpetrating"? Why does it have to be systemic to be a net negative, and how do you know you're aware of everything going on? You can just be a lazy union member and assume that "the union is a net good" the same way you can be a lazy non-union member and assume "being unionless is a net good".
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Many revolutions started when one person though things weren't right.
- smacktoward 7y ago
  > Now let's say I work for a hypothetical Walmart union. 1 million members or whatever. What can I do to check and balance anything? You misunderstand how unions work. Unions aren't monolithic organizations, but rather organized around locals (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_union), with a local being the unit of the union representing a single workplace. While locals are affiliated with a larger union, they also have some degree of independence (exactly how much depending on a variety of factors), including electing their own leadership. For most union workers, while they are technically members of a much larger union, almost all of the ways they interface with that larger organization are through their local. So they're not one among a million members, they're one among (say) a few hundred, all of whom are people who work with them and live in their community. And if you're part of such a group and want to change its direction, you can run for a leadership position in the local, just as you would in the HOA.
  - brianwawok 7y ago
    I'm not sure thats the right comparison. Eletricians tend to work within a city, at a given job site. So they are fairly autonomous. A walmart union would not. For example, look at United Auto Workers. How much control does the average UAW union member have over his life? Compare to the average software engineer. How much control does he have over his working conditions and pay?
taffer 7y ago
> If you are involved in the Union, and other workers are involved, there is seldom a problem. OP was asking what he can do as a small business owner.

brianwawok 7y ago

I was in a condo with like 8 units. Got in the HOA board, because it wasn't that hard (3/8 owners get membership). I could pretty much stop stupid stiff. Now let's say I work for a hypothetical Walmart union. 1 million members or whatever. What can I do to check and balance anything? How can I bet anything except a tool to be used for various warring factions to extract more money from each other.

throw0101a 7y ago
> What can I do to check and balance anything? How can I bet anything except a tool to be used for various warring factions to extract more money from each other. See also any democratic society.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  But this is why we lean towards a lot of freedom in society.
  - moate 7y ago
    We also lean towards creating plenty of institutions in society. We have regulatory oversight groups. We have law enforcement groups. We have trade organizations and Parent Teacher Associations and lobbying interests and and and.
    - umvi 7y ago
      > We also lean towards creating plenty of institutions in society. Most of which are not democratic. Democracies are extremely inefficient compared to a "dictatorship" where the president of the institution is in charge. You should only switch to a democracy as a last resort due to systemic abuses that can't be resolved any other way. I haven't worked in the games industry, but so far working as a software developer I have not encountered systemic abuses that merit introducing an extremely inefficient democratic oversight system to the company.
      - throw0101a 7y ago
        Count yourself fortunately that you had the opportunities to work in better working conditions. The software developers and other creatives in the gaming industry may feel different. In Ontario, Canada, the autoworker unions have been trying to unionize the Toyota plant and have not been successful: the workers always vote 'no'. The works at GM and Ford plants felt differently. Just because you work in a 'good' part of an industry does not mean everyone does.
        umvi 7y ago
        > Just because you work in a 'good' part of an industry does not mean everyone does. Right, but the article in question is arguing: > A union isn’t just right for Vox Media, but for everyone And I'm questioning if it really is. I, for one, don't want yet another democratic system I need to invest time and thought into in order for it to be effective. Local, state, federal government + HOA is enough already. I'm happy with the way the president of past companies I've worked for ran things and I'm glad I didn't have to research union candidates, run for union positions, and/or vote on union issues in my already limited free time.
      - moate 7y ago
        That's a lot of assumptions my dude. I don't see who is the "dictator" in your example as it relates to a union shop. You're all small (1 person) dictatorships, but you could also frame it as 1 person democracies? In this situation a systemic abuse is any abuse that happens to you, because you're the entire system? Or this is just a really hard metaphor to work with? I get that you're argument below was "I'm lazy and don't have time to deal with being informed about the issues that would come with a union" but how is that any different from "I'm lazy and don't have time to deal with being informed about all the possible labor abuses my employer is perpetrating"? Why does it have to be systemic to be a net negative, and how do you know you're aware of everything going on? You can just be a lazy union member and assume that "the union is a net good" the same way you can be a lazy non-union member and assume "being unionless is a net good".
pjmlp 7y ago
Many revolutions started when one person though things weren't right.
smacktoward 7y ago
> Now let's say I work for a hypothetical Walmart union. 1 million members or whatever. What can I do to check and balance anything? You misunderstand how unions work. Unions aren't monolithic organizations, but rather organized around locals (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_union), with a local being the unit of the union representing a single workplace. While locals are affiliated with a larger union, they also have some degree of independence (exactly how much depending on a variety of factors), including electing their own leadership. For most union workers, while they are technically members of a much larger union, almost all of the ways they interface with that larger organization are through their local. So they're not one among a million members, they're one among (say) a few hundred, all of whom are people who work with them and live in their community. And if you're part of such a group and want to change its direction, you can run for a leadership position in the local, just as you would in the HOA.
- brianwawok 7y ago
  I'm not sure thats the right comparison. Eletricians tend to work within a city, at a given job site. So they are fairly autonomous. A walmart union would not. For example, look at United Auto Workers. How much control does the average UAW union member have over his life? Compare to the average software engineer. How much control does he have over his working conditions and pay?

taffer 7y ago

> If you are involved in the Union, and other workers are involved, there is seldom a problem. OP was asking what he can do as a small business owner.