4 ms·

No... it's not true. In the end I have heard employees be terminated for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Unless you are a very senior developer, the chances of

No... it's not true. In the end I have heard employees be terminated for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Unless you are a very senior developer, the chances of you being replaceable especially at a well funded company are very high... In fact all businesses are set up to make all their employees replaceable. > Isn’t that just smart? Why would I, the hypothetical investor risking my money on a venture, tie that money to a specific employee? That’s putting all of your eggs in one basket. Similarly, why would as a hypothetical employee work without the protection of a union? > 1) Payscale -- a professional is in a better position to have a substantial emergency fund, to get through a sudden layoff. It would be higher yet with unions. > 2) Demand -- Some professional skills are also in high demand, which makes changing employers easier. Easier, yes, but not easy. > 3) Upward and lateral mobility -- In a union shop, mobility is often rigidly defined by seniority, whereas in many professional services, the employee can be more in control of their career. Contrast this to something like the airline pilots union, where a pilot has to start over as a rookey if they change airlines. When I started my last job, I was able to negotiate more weeks PTO because of my years of experience in the field. Yes except in tech you are an old man by 40, so yes enjoy your 5-year senior developer status... And enjoy your retirement at 40. It's a mythology that you are better off in tech because of the lack of unions because of the super high salaries, etc., which are only to be found in a small segment of the industry.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
But then you get a better job somewhere else. Highly skilled, remember?
- devoply 7y ago
  As everyone here will tell you hiring in tech is broken. It will take you a significant amount of time, months to find another job... after having to practice to get that job with things you don't usually do -- i.e. pass code interviews and other bullshit.
  - derekp7 7y ago
    Is that true everywhere, or is it mostly a West Coast web dev shop cultural item? In systems engineering / operations / devops / architecture roles in the MidWest, I have never experienced any of that BS.
    - ufmace 7y ago
      It might be in West Coast dev shops. I'm not sure, I've never interviewed at one. I have worked in the central US and east coast, and I've always been able to find a new job within a month or so of deciding that I want one. Perhaps hiring in tech could be better, but calling it broken is a wild exaggeration IMO.
- blub 7y ago
  You reply would only make sense if we didn't have a new thread every month about how broken tech interviews are, where even experienced/senior engineers are complaining how exhausting it is to get a new job. You need to think about others, not just your particular case in order to understand what drives people to support the idea of union.
  - ufmace 7y ago
    The noise doesn't match the reality IME. Tech interviewing trends are less than ideal sometimes, but finding jobs as an experienced and articulate professional developer is not hard in my own experience and that of everyone I've worked with.
briandear 7y ago
> In fact all businesses are set up to make all their employees replaceable. Isn’t that just smart? Why would I, the hypothetical investor risking my money on a venture, tie that money to a specific employee? That’s putting all of your eggs in one basket.
derekp7 7y ago
I think it is probably fair to say that unions have pros and cons, and the pros outweigh the cons for factory-type workers, whereas in the professional fields the cons may outweigh the pros. Here are some items to consider: 1) Payscale -- a professional is in a better position to have a substantial emergency fund, to get through a sudden layoff. 2) Demand -- Some professional skills are also in high demand, which makes changing employers easier. 3) Upward and lateral mobility -- In a union shop, mobility is often rigidly defined by seniority, whereas in many professional services, the employee can be more in control of their career. Contrast this to something like the airline pilots union, where a pilot has to start over as a rookey if they change airlines. When I started my last job, I was able to negotiate more weeks PTO because of my years of experience in the field.
- moate 7y ago
  >>1) Payscale I don't get how this is a "con" of working for a hypothetical union. Why couldn't a collective bargaining agreement create better wages? Why couldn't a union help prevent a sudden layoff in the first place? >>2) Demand Some professional skills are currently in demand, which currently makes changing employers easier. Again, saying "Well if my job sucks, I can just go get a different job" might be true today, but it might not be as easy tomorrow. Also, this isn't a "con" but an alternative solution to the same problem a union would solve. If your job is enjoyable and paying you well (ideally what the union should be doing) then why do you need to change jobs? >>Upward and lateral mobility -- In a union shop, mobility is often rigidly defined by seniority There's no reason for this to be needed. You can make a union without this problem. NFL players don't make more money because they're older, they make more money because they provide more value to their teams. They're also in a union. Bad unions exist. Good unions also exist. Why not just say "if we're going to make a tech sector union, we need to make it a good union that meets most people's needs" instead of saying "some unions can be bad, so never make a union"?
  - derekp7 7y ago
    Payscale is a pro for unions where the labor is fairly uniform. It is a con in professions where an individual can get much higher salary by providing much higher value to the employer than his/her peers. Example: if I was in a union shop, and I consistently found ways to optimize the machine I'm working on to decrease defects and increase output, that is a benefit to my employer. But my employer may not be allowed to give me a promotion for that work, because I've only been there for 2 years, whereas another employee who just does the minimum necessary work and has been there 10 years will get the promotion instead of me. Whereas when I do this as a Unix/Linux systems engineer, I get constantly rewarded. Or I build up my track record and take those skills to a higher paying employer. And yes, good and bad unions exist. It is quite possible that bad unions tend to form around certain types of professions (factory machine operator, teachers unions, etc). Whereas actors, sports teams, etc. have more in common with high tech workers (individual contributions can have outsized impact), so it is possible that a "good" union would form around the tech industry. Personally, I'd like to see something more like a trade guild, which sets a base set of guidelines that their members have to follow, and also minimal acceptable standards that employers would need to follow in order to be able to higher quality workers from the guild. The benefit to the employer is that the guild would basically give them workers that are of at least a known minimum skill level for a given position.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

But then you get a better job somewhere else. Highly skilled, remember?

devoply 7y ago
As everyone here will tell you hiring in tech is broken. It will take you a significant amount of time, months to find another job... after having to practice to get that job with things you don't usually do -- i.e. pass code interviews and other bullshit.
- derekp7 7y ago
  Is that true everywhere, or is it mostly a West Coast web dev shop cultural item? In systems engineering / operations / devops / architecture roles in the MidWest, I have never experienced any of that BS.
  - ufmace 7y ago
    It might be in West Coast dev shops. I'm not sure, I've never interviewed at one. I have worked in the central US and east coast, and I've always been able to find a new job within a month or so of deciding that I want one. Perhaps hiring in tech could be better, but calling it broken is a wild exaggeration IMO.
blub 7y ago
You reply would only make sense if we didn't have a new thread every month about how broken tech interviews are, where even experienced/senior engineers are complaining how exhausting it is to get a new job. You need to think about others, not just your particular case in order to understand what drives people to support the idea of union.
- ufmace 7y ago
  The noise doesn't match the reality IME. Tech interviewing trends are less than ideal sometimes, but finding jobs as an experienced and articulate professional developer is not hard in my own experience and that of everyone I've worked with.

briandear 7y ago

> In fact all businesses are set up to make all their employees replaceable. Isn’t that just smart? Why would I, the hypothetical investor risking my money on a venture, tie that money to a specific employee? That’s putting all of your eggs in one basket.

derekp7 7y ago

I think it is probably fair to say that unions have pros and cons, and the pros outweigh the cons for factory-type workers, whereas in the professional fields the cons may outweigh the pros. Here are some items to consider: 1) Payscale -- a professional is in a better position to have a substantial emergency fund, to get through a sudden layoff. 2) Demand -- Some professional skills are also in high demand, which makes changing employers easier. 3) Upward and lateral mobility -- In a union shop, mobility is often rigidly defined by seniority, whereas in many professional services, the employee can be more in control of their career. Contrast this to something like the airline pilots union, where a pilot has to start over as a rookey if they change airlines. When I started my last job, I was able to negotiate more weeks PTO because of my years of experience in the field.

moate 7y ago
>>1) Payscale I don't get how this is a "con" of working for a hypothetical union. Why couldn't a collective bargaining agreement create better wages? Why couldn't a union help prevent a sudden layoff in the first place? >>2) Demand Some professional skills are currently in demand, which currently makes changing employers easier. Again, saying "Well if my job sucks, I can just go get a different job" might be true today, but it might not be as easy tomorrow. Also, this isn't a "con" but an alternative solution to the same problem a union would solve. If your job is enjoyable and paying you well (ideally what the union should be doing) then why do you need to change jobs? >>Upward and lateral mobility -- In a union shop, mobility is often rigidly defined by seniority There's no reason for this to be needed. You can make a union without this problem. NFL players don't make more money because they're older, they make more money because they provide more value to their teams. They're also in a union. Bad unions exist. Good unions also exist. Why not just say "if we're going to make a tech sector union, we need to make it a good union that meets most people's needs" instead of saying "some unions can be bad, so never make a union"?
- derekp7 7y ago
  Payscale is a pro for unions where the labor is fairly uniform. It is a con in professions where an individual can get much higher salary by providing much higher value to the employer than his/her peers. Example: if I was in a union shop, and I consistently found ways to optimize the machine I'm working on to decrease defects and increase output, that is a benefit to my employer. But my employer may not be allowed to give me a promotion for that work, because I've only been there for 2 years, whereas another employee who just does the minimum necessary work and has been there 10 years will get the promotion instead of me. Whereas when I do this as a Unix/Linux systems engineer, I get constantly rewarded. Or I build up my track record and take those skills to a higher paying employer. And yes, good and bad unions exist. It is quite possible that bad unions tend to form around certain types of professions (factory machine operator, teachers unions, etc). Whereas actors, sports teams, etc. have more in common with high tech workers (individual contributions can have outsized impact), so it is possible that a "good" union would form around the tech industry. Personally, I'd like to see something more like a trade guild, which sets a base set of guidelines that their members have to follow, and also minimal acceptable standards that employers would need to follow in order to be able to higher quality workers from the guild. The benefit to the employer is that the guild would basically give them workers that are of at least a known minimum skill level for a given position.