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I agree with the title, but disagree with the article. If you're at all an experienced software engineer, you should avoid working as a "software engineer" at a

I agree with the title, but disagree with the article. If you're at all an experienced software engineer, you should avoid working as a "software engineer" at a startup, because you'll most likely be worked to the bone for a pittance in equity. You're much better off either finding a VP or C-level position at a much smaller startup, or doing your own side project. At least when you're working at 3am, because the only client wants something by tomorrow, you'll know that all the net will go into your own bank account.

lonelappde 7y ago
There are good employers and bad employers. I hear software engineering at AAA game companies is no picnic either. HN is flush of people who did quite well on startup equity.
- 5trokerac3 7y ago
  I've been around both industries and the main thing they survive on is convincing engineers to stay in crap conditions because of how "cool" everything is. I'm lucky enough that the game company I worked for was run by great people, but I've heard horror stories from friends that moved on. The equity piece is just percentages. If I go to a "startup" in series D and get 0.01% of the company, it better be a frickin' unicorn, because it'd have to sell for $1B for me to make $100k, at best. If I'm a cofounder and have 25% of the company, it only needs to sell for $400k for me to make the same amount. Never mind that you'd make that $100k difference within a few years, being paid market rate at an established company, and probably get to go home at 5. Now imagine what happens if you put that extra $25-30k you're making into the company's matching 401k, because they actually have one. And you get real raises instead of more stock options that may wind up worthless. And if things go sour you just go to another company, because your investments aren't based on the success of the dysfunctional company you're currently working for.
  - taurath 7y ago
    > convincing engineers to stay in crap conditions because of how "cool" everything is Games are "cool" and they certainly talk about it, but its also that this is your one shot, and there's 1000 people beating down the door to take your job who will gladly take any mount of pay. There's a lot of "life goals" tied up there.
Techonomicon 7y ago
I'm tired of the whole "if you're doing x at a startup you're foolish" You only live once, it's amazing to be an engineer now and have all the choices of being able to actually work somewhere that you ENJOY working at, that you align with and find interesting. If that job happens to pay you $250k / year then great, but if it pays you only $150k and you actually enjoy half your waking hours then seems like you're the real winner.
- 5trokerac3 7y ago
  But in startups that whole "work somewhere or on something you enjoy" is a front. Programming is programming, as long as you find a challenging problem. Everything else is ego. Some of the most gratifying work I've done is on extremely tedious problems for majorly boring products. The fact that the product is boring and technical lowers the amount of drama around it, allowing you to focus on the programming you love. The most stressful and least gratifying work I've ever done was on the multiple "sexy" and "ground breaking" products I've worked on. Those products attract snake oil salesmen and shady execs looking to make a quick buck, and who make daily life at the company a nightmare. Another thing is the $250k/$150k numbers you give. That shows a very valley-centric view. There are parts of the US where you can work for tier 1-2 companies and where that same $150k is the equivalent of $300k in the valley.
  - Techonomicon 7y ago
    > "work somewhere or on something you enjoy" Definitely not true, and a generalization. I've worked at the shittiest of shitty culture game startups in the early 2010s to places that really strive to build a great culture for everyone at work, is empathetic, and cares about putting employees on a career track they care about. Just because you haven't been at such a place doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean that speaks for everyone. At this point you can definitely work for interesting startups remotely, I've personally consulted for several in the past year on the side. They use interesting tech, have great people, and are working on interesting problems.
    - 7y ago

lonelappde 7y ago

There are good employers and bad employers. I hear software engineering at AAA game companies is no picnic either. HN is flush of people who did quite well on startup equity.

5trokerac3 7y ago
I've been around both industries and the main thing they survive on is convincing engineers to stay in crap conditions because of how "cool" everything is. I'm lucky enough that the game company I worked for was run by great people, but I've heard horror stories from friends that moved on. The equity piece is just percentages. If I go to a "startup" in series D and get 0.01% of the company, it better be a frickin' unicorn, because it'd have to sell for $1B for me to make $100k, at best. If I'm a cofounder and have 25% of the company, it only needs to sell for $400k for me to make the same amount. Never mind that you'd make that $100k difference within a few years, being paid market rate at an established company, and probably get to go home at 5. Now imagine what happens if you put that extra $25-30k you're making into the company's matching 401k, because they actually have one. And you get real raises instead of more stock options that may wind up worthless. And if things go sour you just go to another company, because your investments aren't based on the success of the dysfunctional company you're currently working for.
- taurath 7y ago
  > convincing engineers to stay in crap conditions because of how "cool" everything is Games are "cool" and they certainly talk about it, but its also that this is your one shot, and there's 1000 people beating down the door to take your job who will gladly take any mount of pay. There's a lot of "life goals" tied up there.

Techonomicon 7y ago

I'm tired of the whole "if you're doing x at a startup you're foolish" You only live once, it's amazing to be an engineer now and have all the choices of being able to actually work somewhere that you ENJOY working at, that you align with and find interesting. If that job happens to pay you $250k / year then great, but if it pays you only $150k and you actually enjoy half your waking hours then seems like you're the real winner.

5trokerac3 7y ago
But in startups that whole "work somewhere or on something you enjoy" is a front. Programming is programming, as long as you find a challenging problem. Everything else is ego. Some of the most gratifying work I've done is on extremely tedious problems for majorly boring products. The fact that the product is boring and technical lowers the amount of drama around it, allowing you to focus on the programming you love. The most stressful and least gratifying work I've ever done was on the multiple "sexy" and "ground breaking" products I've worked on. Those products attract snake oil salesmen and shady execs looking to make a quick buck, and who make daily life at the company a nightmare. Another thing is the $250k/$150k numbers you give. That shows a very valley-centric view. There are parts of the US where you can work for tier 1-2 companies and where that same $150k is the equivalent of $300k in the valley.
- Techonomicon 7y ago
  > "work somewhere or on something you enjoy" Definitely not true, and a generalization. I've worked at the shittiest of shitty culture game startups in the early 2010s to places that really strive to build a great culture for everyone at work, is empathetic, and cares about putting employees on a career track they care about. Just because you haven't been at such a place doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean that speaks for everyone. At this point you can definitely work for interesting startups remotely, I've personally consulted for several in the past year on the side. They use interesting tech, have great people, and are working on interesting problems.
  - 7y ago