7 ms·

Crossword Panic of 1944

160 points by yread 7y ago

SolarNet 7y ago
This almost reminds me of the Foundation series. Where with enough math/statistics one can extract the future. Except here applied to 6th graders, distilling the information they had heard, and breaking an operation that way.
- electronstudio 7y ago
  6th formers are aged 16-18. I think 6th graders are much younger?
  - mattlondon 7y ago
    Correct. 6th form (lower sixth and upper sixth) is the two academic years prior to going to uni in the UK. 16-18 year olds.
    - KuiN 7y ago
      It's an England and Wales thing, not a UK thing.
  - Izkata 7y ago
    > I think 6th graders are much younger? About 11-12 years old.
  - InitialLastName 7y ago
    Yes, usually 11-12.
- mannykannot 7y ago
  I can readily believe that they may have picked up Utah and Omaha from US soldiers' casual conversation, but if Mulberry and Overlord were being bandied about with enough frequency to have made an impression, I do not suppose they were very secret.
duxup 7y ago
>Why, the officers demanded to know, had he chosen these five words within his crossword solutions? >“Why not?” was Dawe’s indignant reply. Was there a law against choosing whatever words he liked? That's one of those cases I kinda fear being in. How do you prove you're not giving away secrets in some secret way when the clue is some random events in life that have little behind them other than happenstance.
- kjs3 7y ago
  Makes me think of something Camus would write about.
- nemo44x 7y ago
  > How do you prove you're not giving away secrets in some secret way when the clue is some random events in life that have little behind them other than happenstance. Isn't this the entire foundation of the fundamental right of innocent until proven guilty? Of course in practice it isn't so simple. In an extreme condition that is extremely unlikely, you could be found guilty exactaly for that reason perhaps. At what point statistically is it on the wrong side of "reasonable doubt"?
  - mholt 7y ago
    It seems that a lot of Rule of Law goes out the window when it comes to (apparent) matters of national security.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      I think that’s often true, but it doesn’t seem to be the case here. The authorities saw something suspicious, they investigated, and ultimately it went nowhere. That’s exactly how it’s supposed to go.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Well as for a trial, probabbly not guilty. I'm just thinking of assuring the local security folks that I'm not doing a bad thing / avoiding the hassle of them thinking I am. When I probabbly don't know what the bad thing even is.
mbrd 7y ago
I first heard about this on the Omnibus Project podcast (Ken Jennings & John Roderick). Here's the link if anyone would like to listen to some light-hearted discussion on the topic: https://www.omnibusproject.com/podcasts/the-d-day-crosswords-entry-318pr2019.htm https://www.omnibusproject.com/podcasts/the-d-day-crosswords...
teddyh 7y ago
“Coincidences are strange and dangerous things.” — Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency
goda90 7y ago
I read a theory that the crossword maker had unconsciously picked up these words being used by kids, who themselves would like to hang out near soldiers that would use those code words.
- cbsks 7y ago
  That is mentioned in the footnote: “it was often his practice to call in 6th formers and ask them for words for inclusion. At that time the US Forces were liberally strewn through Surrey, particularly in the Epsom area and there is no doubt that boys heard these code words being bandied about and innocently passed them on.”
  - jimnotgym 7y ago
    This sounds absurd to me. Ordinary soldiers are unlikely to have been told the codewords for their area of operations until the last minute. They certainly wouldn't have been told about other code words for other areas of operation that they were not part of! I don't buy it one bit. I also find it unlikely that the bulk of the invasion force was in Surrey in May '44. I think they might have moved to the coast by then.
    - ggggtez 7y ago
      The wikipedia article on this topic also indicates that there is some reason to suspect that the crossword author was not being entirely truthful about it, but at the end of the day, who knows.
danielparks 7y ago
I’m having a hard time imagining what value putting code names in the crossword would have. Did they suspect the compiler was encoding information in the position of the words or something? Seems like an unnecessarily hard way to exfiltrate data.
- mulmen 7y ago
  Based on what we knew of enigma and codebreaking at the time knowing frequently-used or high-value words and phrases may have assisted German codebreaking efforts. Considering the circumstances extreme paranoia seems justified.
- tempestn 7y ago
  True, but you can still imagine why they'd be worried to find so many of these related code words regarding the most critical secret operation of the war being published in this cryptic fashion.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  If you had limited bandwidth, but knew other agents existed, "have the other guy ask about Operation Overlord" would be a useful message to get out.
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    Although one shouldn't assume, the Abwehr was so totally outgunned in WW2 that they did not successfully insert any agents into Britain. All who landed were either converted to double agents (Some just volunteered without being asked) or captured (and presumably some "dealt with")
vmilner 7y ago
BBC TV drama "The Mountain and the Molehill" (1988) at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nANoCftnK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nANoCftnK0
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Thrymr 7y ago
The linked article is rather thin. There is more detail on Wikipedia [0], including links to more thorough Telegraph stories from 2004 [1] and 2014 [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Daily_Telegraph_crossword_security_alarm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Daily_Telegraph_crosswor... [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1460892/D-Day-crosswords-are-still-a-few-clues-short-of-a-solution.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1460892/D-Day-crossw... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/10789884/Who-put-secret-D-Day-clues-in-the-Telegraph-crossword.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/10789884/Who-put-s...

160 points by yread 7y ago

This almost reminds me of the Foundation series. Where with enough math/statistics one can extract the future. Except here applied to 6th graders, distilling the information they had heard, and breaking an operation that way.

electronstudio 7y ago
6th formers are aged 16-18. I think 6th graders are much younger?
- mattlondon 7y ago
  Correct. 6th form (lower sixth and upper sixth) is the two academic years prior to going to uni in the UK. 16-18 year olds.
  - KuiN 7y ago
    It's an England and Wales thing, not a UK thing.
- Izkata 7y ago
  > I think 6th graders are much younger? About 11-12 years old.
- InitialLastName 7y ago
  Yes, usually 11-12.
mannykannot 7y ago
I can readily believe that they may have picked up Utah and Omaha from US soldiers' casual conversation, but if Mulberry and Overlord were being bandied about with enough frequency to have made an impression, I do not suppose they were very secret.

duxup 7y ago

>Why, the officers demanded to know, had he chosen these five words within his crossword solutions? >“Why not?” was Dawe’s indignant reply. Was there a law against choosing whatever words he liked? That's one of those cases I kinda fear being in. How do you prove you're not giving away secrets in some secret way when the clue is some random events in life that have little behind them other than happenstance.

kjs3 7y ago
Makes me think of something Camus would write about.
nemo44x 7y ago
> How do you prove you're not giving away secrets in some secret way when the clue is some random events in life that have little behind them other than happenstance. Isn't this the entire foundation of the fundamental right of innocent until proven guilty? Of course in practice it isn't so simple. In an extreme condition that is extremely unlikely, you could be found guilty exactaly for that reason perhaps. At what point statistically is it on the wrong side of "reasonable doubt"?
- mholt 7y ago
  It seems that a lot of Rule of Law goes out the window when it comes to (apparent) matters of national security.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I think that’s often true, but it doesn’t seem to be the case here. The authorities saw something suspicious, they investigated, and ultimately it went nowhere. That’s exactly how it’s supposed to go.
- duxup 7y ago
  Well as for a trial, probabbly not guilty. I'm just thinking of assuring the local security folks that I'm not doing a bad thing / avoiding the hassle of them thinking I am. When I probabbly don't know what the bad thing even is.

mbrd 7y ago

I first heard about this on the Omnibus Project podcast (Ken Jennings & John Roderick). Here's the link if anyone would like to listen to some light-hearted discussion on the topic: https://www.omnibusproject.com/podcasts/the-d-day-crosswords-entry-318pr2019.htm https://www.omnibusproject.com/podcasts/the-d-day-crosswords...

teddyh 7y ago

“Coincidences are strange and dangerous things.” — Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency

goda90 7y ago

I read a theory that the crossword maker had unconsciously picked up these words being used by kids, who themselves would like to hang out near soldiers that would use those code words.

cbsks 7y ago
That is mentioned in the footnote: “it was often his practice to call in 6th formers and ask them for words for inclusion. At that time the US Forces were liberally strewn through Surrey, particularly in the Epsom area and there is no doubt that boys heard these code words being bandied about and innocently passed them on.”
- jimnotgym 7y ago
  This sounds absurd to me. Ordinary soldiers are unlikely to have been told the codewords for their area of operations until the last minute. They certainly wouldn't have been told about other code words for other areas of operation that they were not part of! I don't buy it one bit. I also find it unlikely that the bulk of the invasion force was in Surrey in May '44. I think they might have moved to the coast by then.
  - ggggtez 7y ago
    The wikipedia article on this topic also indicates that there is some reason to suspect that the crossword author was not being entirely truthful about it, but at the end of the day, who knows.

danielparks 7y ago

I’m having a hard time imagining what value putting code names in the crossword would have. Did they suspect the compiler was encoding information in the position of the words or something? Seems like an unnecessarily hard way to exfiltrate data.

mulmen 7y ago
Based on what we knew of enigma and codebreaking at the time knowing frequently-used or high-value words and phrases may have assisted German codebreaking efforts. Considering the circumstances extreme paranoia seems justified.
tempestn 7y ago
True, but you can still imagine why they'd be worried to find so many of these related code words regarding the most critical secret operation of the war being published in this cryptic fashion.
ceejayoz 7y ago
If you had limited bandwidth, but knew other agents existed, "have the other guy ask about Operation Overlord" would be a useful message to get out.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  Although one shouldn't assume, the Abwehr was so totally outgunned in WW2 that they did not successfully insert any agents into Britain. All who landed were either converted to double agents (Some just volunteered without being asked) or captured (and presumably some "dealt with")

vmilner 7y ago

BBC TV drama "The Mountain and the Molehill" (1988) at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nANoCftnK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nANoCftnK0

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Thrymr 7y ago

The linked article is rather thin. There is more detail on Wikipedia [0], including links to more thorough Telegraph stories from 2004 [1] and 2014 [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Daily_Telegraph_crossword_security_alarm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Daily_Telegraph_crosswor... [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1460892/D-Day-crosswords-are-still-a-few-clues-short-of-a-solution.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1460892/D-Day-crossw... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/10789884/Who-put-secret-D-Day-clues-in-the-Telegraph-crossword.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/10789884/Who-put-s...