5 ms·

This is just to push the EU into a position where it's more willing to negotiate.

by bArray 7y ago

C1sc0cat 7y ago
Ah just like the scene in Blazing Saddles where the sheriff holds the gun to his own head.
jashmatthews 7y ago
The EU have offered the best they can given the UK negotiation red-lines. It's not an adversarial negotiation, it's a future partnership.
- addicted 7y ago
  The fact that the UK government isn’t able to understand the inherent contradiction in “controlling your borders” and having an “open border” is remarkable. Further, that they insist this contribution can be solved by “future technology” but cannot actually point to any such future technology only adds to the farce.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    I'm sure that they understand it, but they also understand that they need to preserve their electoral base while also preserving the economy.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Unfortunately the average UK Politicos (apart from a few like @ChiOnwurah) knowledge of the Blinky light machines is tenuous at best.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- makomk 7y ago
  Notice how differently you've framed the two sides' complete unwillingness to budge - the EU magnanimously "offered the best they can" whilst the UK had "negotiation red-lines" they're stubbonly refusing to budge on. In reality, they're both the same thing - both sides have lines they're unwilling to cross based on their own interests and what actually stands a chance of passing. It's just that the press has spent the last few years spinning the EU negotiating position as some kind of blameless, inevitable natural law and the UK negotiating postion as a fallable human delusion.
  - starfallg 7y ago
    Complete tosh. The issue isn't the redlines per se, the issue is that the UK redlines are completely contradictory to logic. We cannot keep NI borderless with RoI and the UK borderless with NI, while at the same time pursuing our own regulatory and customs regime, without massive problems in both governance and enforcement. It's just not possible logically, and efforts to paint it as a 'both sides' problem is completely dishonest.
  - jashmatthews 7y ago
    What realistic concessions could the EU offer? No possible offer could get through the current UK parliament while we're so dysfunctional.
    - makomk 7y ago
      Realistically, I don't think the EU is going to offer any concessions that would solve the problems that parliament has with it, but that doesn't mean the problems aren't real. In particular, the current offer trashes the part of the Good Friday Agreement which the government's current coalition partner cares about by eroding Northern Ireland's status as part of the UK, and the backstop tramples on the constitutional requirement that no parliament may bind its successor by tying us to the EU until they permit us to leave. The EU seems to think that the Good Friday Agreement consists of only the parts which help them, and the only way out of the backstop problem was to make the GFA problem much worse. We can't just solve this by deciding the EU is impossible to leave and giving up either, because again there's that pesky bit in the constitution about parliaments not being able to bind their successors. Whilst we have other international commitments about stuff like war crimes which could technically be argued to violate this, irrevocably transferring the power to create laws across many areas to a foreign body goes right to the core of what it's meant to prevent. Clever arguments about how we could technically leave, it's just not possible in practice don't solve this - our constitution is based on principles, it's not computer code where if you find a way around the literal rules you can get through.
- chappi42 7y ago
  The EU also had huge red-lines. And instead of pressuring weaker partners, the EU might have done better to be more pragmatic and welcoming.
  - starfallg 7y ago
    Huh? The EU has done loads for its weaker partners in the Brexit negotiations. Ireland is a small Member State that is having its interests protected by the EU. That's the entire reason for the EU insisting on protecting the current borderless arrangement between NI and RoI. For Ireland, membership in the EU is worth more than its weight in gold.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      Hey Vsauce, Michael here! How much does a membership in the EU... weigh?
- bArray 7y ago
  > The EU have offered the best they can given the UK negotiation red-lines. I think this should be: The EU have offered the best [deal they want] given the UK negotiation red-lines [and the UK's lack of leverage]. The UK may have a relatively strong economy as a Country, but it's currently against the EU super state in the negotiations. The EU has most of the power when brokering a deal and this is just one small step towards making the negotiation table more even. > It's not an adversarial negotiation, it's a future partnership. Every political engagement is adversarial, there is of course common grounds, but each side wants to 'win'. The EU wants to remove all incentive for other member states to leave to safe guard its own future existence as a super state.
  - jashmatthews 7y ago
    > The EU wants to remove all incentive for other member states to leave to safe guard its own future existence as a super state. I really disagree with that. A dysfunctional EU is worse than for the EU than countries leaving. The EU could do far more to "punish" the UK. So far they've been quite accommodating, like agreeing to keep the entire UK in the customs union for the backstop rather than splitting NI and GB.
    - bArray 7y ago
      > I really disagree with that. A dysfunctional EU is worse than for the EU than countries leaving. I agree that a dysfunctional EU is something they want to avoid, but I think that's exactly why they want to prevent other Countries from leaving. A dysfunctional EU is one without lots of member states (therefore lots of power + economy). Given that member states currently have so very little individual veto control, you need to have a majority of states (or elected persons) acting in bad faith for them really to become a problem. > The EU could do far more to "punish" the UK. Maybe, but possibly not without spooking other member states. I think the UK's only saving grace is that everybody is watching very closely. > So far they've been quite accommodating, like agreeing to keep the entire UK in the customs union for the backstop rather than splitting NI and GB. If you look at the deal offered it's effectively membership without the power to vote, that sounds great from the EU's perspective, two birds with one stone.
pjc50 7y ago
Holding millions of EU nationals hostage is a grossly immoral way to do that. And it's not likely to be effective either.
- ReptileMan 7y ago
  They are not hostages. Or anything. They will jusy have to return to their home countries. There is no mention of UK forcing them to stay/preventing outbound movement. It is a mess, but if UK has to leave that is the only way. And some UK citizens will return home.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Many of them are married to British nationals. They may be ineligible to remain here while their spouses may be ineligible to move to Europe. At the very least the act of moving internationally at short notice without a guaranteed job is a hugely expensive thing to inflict on people. > but if UK has to leave that is the only way. No it absolutely fucking is not. The UK government has always had the option of treating them better and chosen not to do it. Being hostile to immigration is a choice. Ending free movement is a choice; the UK is not required to end free movement to leave the EU (see Norway).
    - ReptileMan 7y ago
      Ok. It is the only way for UK since EU refuses to give them the exit deal they want. Also marriage is almost universal reason worldwide for permenant residence. So the people married to UK nationals will eventually be able to get permanent residence in UK and vice versa.
      - pjc50 7y ago
        It's not automatic: there are minimum income requirements, and a number of other eligibility criteria. And again, not getting what you want is not an excuse for inflicting hardship on innocent bystanders.
- 7y ago

This is just to push the EU into a position where it's more willing to negotiate.

by bArray 7y ago

This is just to push the EU into a position where it's more willing to negotiate.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Ah just like the scene in Blazing Saddles where the sheriff holds the gun to his own head.

jashmatthews 7y ago

The EU have offered the best they can given the UK negotiation red-lines. It's not an adversarial negotiation, it's a future partnership.

addicted 7y ago
The fact that the UK government isn’t able to understand the inherent contradiction in “controlling your borders” and having an “open border” is remarkable. Further, that they insist this contribution can be solved by “future technology” but cannot actually point to any such future technology only adds to the farce.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  I'm sure that they understand it, but they also understand that they need to preserve their electoral base while also preserving the economy.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Unfortunately the average UK Politicos (apart from a few like @ChiOnwurah) knowledge of the Blinky light machines is tenuous at best.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
makomk 7y ago
Notice how differently you've framed the two sides' complete unwillingness to budge - the EU magnanimously "offered the best they can" whilst the UK had "negotiation red-lines" they're stubbonly refusing to budge on. In reality, they're both the same thing - both sides have lines they're unwilling to cross based on their own interests and what actually stands a chance of passing. It's just that the press has spent the last few years spinning the EU negotiating position as some kind of blameless, inevitable natural law and the UK negotiating postion as a fallable human delusion.
- starfallg 7y ago
  Complete tosh. The issue isn't the redlines per se, the issue is that the UK redlines are completely contradictory to logic. We cannot keep NI borderless with RoI and the UK borderless with NI, while at the same time pursuing our own regulatory and customs regime, without massive problems in both governance and enforcement. It's just not possible logically, and efforts to paint it as a 'both sides' problem is completely dishonest.
- jashmatthews 7y ago
  What realistic concessions could the EU offer? No possible offer could get through the current UK parliament while we're so dysfunctional.
  - makomk 7y ago
    Realistically, I don't think the EU is going to offer any concessions that would solve the problems that parliament has with it, but that doesn't mean the problems aren't real. In particular, the current offer trashes the part of the Good Friday Agreement which the government's current coalition partner cares about by eroding Northern Ireland's status as part of the UK, and the backstop tramples on the constitutional requirement that no parliament may bind its successor by tying us to the EU until they permit us to leave. The EU seems to think that the Good Friday Agreement consists of only the parts which help them, and the only way out of the backstop problem was to make the GFA problem much worse. We can't just solve this by deciding the EU is impossible to leave and giving up either, because again there's that pesky bit in the constitution about parliaments not being able to bind their successors. Whilst we have other international commitments about stuff like war crimes which could technically be argued to violate this, irrevocably transferring the power to create laws across many areas to a foreign body goes right to the core of what it's meant to prevent. Clever arguments about how we could technically leave, it's just not possible in practice don't solve this - our constitution is based on principles, it's not computer code where if you find a way around the literal rules you can get through.
chappi42 7y ago
The EU also had huge red-lines. And instead of pressuring weaker partners, the EU might have done better to be more pragmatic and welcoming.
- starfallg 7y ago
  Huh? The EU has done loads for its weaker partners in the Brexit negotiations. Ireland is a small Member State that is having its interests protected by the EU. That's the entire reason for the EU insisting on protecting the current borderless arrangement between NI and RoI. For Ireland, membership in the EU is worth more than its weight in gold.
  - majewsky 7y ago
    Hey Vsauce, Michael here! How much does a membership in the EU... weigh?
bArray 7y ago
> The EU have offered the best they can given the UK negotiation red-lines. I think this should be: The EU have offered the best [deal they want] given the UK negotiation red-lines [and the UK's lack of leverage]. The UK may have a relatively strong economy as a Country, but it's currently against the EU super state in the negotiations. The EU has most of the power when brokering a deal and this is just one small step towards making the negotiation table more even. > It's not an adversarial negotiation, it's a future partnership. Every political engagement is adversarial, there is of course common grounds, but each side wants to 'win'. The EU wants to remove all incentive for other member states to leave to safe guard its own future existence as a super state.
- jashmatthews 7y ago
  > The EU wants to remove all incentive for other member states to leave to safe guard its own future existence as a super state. I really disagree with that. A dysfunctional EU is worse than for the EU than countries leaving. The EU could do far more to "punish" the UK. So far they've been quite accommodating, like agreeing to keep the entire UK in the customs union for the backstop rather than splitting NI and GB.
  - bArray 7y ago
    > I really disagree with that. A dysfunctional EU is worse than for the EU than countries leaving. I agree that a dysfunctional EU is something they want to avoid, but I think that's exactly why they want to prevent other Countries from leaving. A dysfunctional EU is one without lots of member states (therefore lots of power + economy). Given that member states currently have so very little individual veto control, you need to have a majority of states (or elected persons) acting in bad faith for them really to become a problem. > The EU could do far more to "punish" the UK. Maybe, but possibly not without spooking other member states. I think the UK's only saving grace is that everybody is watching very closely. > So far they've been quite accommodating, like agreeing to keep the entire UK in the customs union for the backstop rather than splitting NI and GB. If you look at the deal offered it's effectively membership without the power to vote, that sounds great from the EU's perspective, two birds with one stone.

pjc50 7y ago

Holding millions of EU nationals hostage is a grossly immoral way to do that. And it's not likely to be effective either.

ReptileMan 7y ago
They are not hostages. Or anything. They will jusy have to return to their home countries. There is no mention of UK forcing them to stay/preventing outbound movement. It is a mess, but if UK has to leave that is the only way. And some UK citizens will return home.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Many of them are married to British nationals. They may be ineligible to remain here while their spouses may be ineligible to move to Europe. At the very least the act of moving internationally at short notice without a guaranteed job is a hugely expensive thing to inflict on people. > but if UK has to leave that is the only way. No it absolutely fucking is not. The UK government has always had the option of treating them better and chosen not to do it. Being hostile to immigration is a choice. Ending free movement is a choice; the UK is not required to end free movement to leave the EU (see Norway).
  - ReptileMan 7y ago
    Ok. It is the only way for UK since EU refuses to give them the exit deal they want. Also marriage is almost universal reason worldwide for permenant residence. So the people married to UK nationals will eventually be able to get permanent residence in UK and vice versa.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      It's not automatic: there are minimum income requirements, and a number of other eligibility criteria. And again, not getting what you want is not an excuse for inflicting hardship on innocent bystanders.
7y ago