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FYI, The Independent has a reputation for writing ridiculous clickbait articles. When you look into the details things almost always turn out to be much less dr

FYI, The Independent has a reputation for writing ridiculous clickbait articles. When you look into the details things almost always turn out to be much less dramatic than the article made it sound. See here for a response to this article: https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1163335442542059520 https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1163335442542059520 > As has been previously been made clear, in the event of no deal, EU citizens and their family members already resident in the UK by 31 October 2019 will be welcome to stay and we want them to do so. They are part of our community, and part of our country and we welcome the contribution that they make. If there is no deal, they will have until 31 December 2020 to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to protect their status.

rmoriz 7y ago
But what about re-entry when coming back from abroad?
- wickerman 7y ago
  You'll need to have applied for settled/pre-settled status, I'd imagine, unless an Irish citizen. And then ask the immigration officer to check gov.uk for you, because there's no actual legal paper or ID issued that you can carry with you.
- DangerousPie 7y ago
  > 10. Until 31 December 2020, EU citizens will be able to enter the UK by showing either a valid national identity card or a passport.
  - starfallg 7y ago
    This gets increasing complicated with third-country dependants of EU citizens thrown into the mix. There are significant numbers of people in this situation living in the UK or entering on a regular basis. Brexit is a complete omnishambles and indicative of wider problems in British media and political discourse.
- tetha 7y ago
  I'm in germany and I have a friend who lives here with his family, but they are still british citizens. So, from our side of the channel: Pretty much everyone in their situation has been contacted by the german government - temporary allowances of residences are prepared for this situation for everyone in their families. All they have to do after an exit is to go to their local citizens bureau in order to sign and collect the papers. After that, they are fine until a more permanent solution is found. However, to answer your question: Coming back from abroad is a complicated thing, even from France inside the EU. Technically, after a hard brexit and without these temporary papers, they are citizens of a foreign nation and the german state has no diplomatic relationship with this state. As such, they could get detained or denied entry if they run into some kind of border control. As such, it is recommended to not leave the country while this is going on. This had tossed quite the wrench into their vacation plans.
tooop 7y ago
Not sure how exactly that gov.uk link is related to this as the article tells about a new plan so you should really dispute the article by providing evidence that the new home secretary doesn't want to impose anything different.
starfallg 7y ago
No, actually it's as big or bigger than the article suggests. There is no longer the 2-year transition period in which EU workers can work in the UK, and UK workers work in the EU. This means that existing working arrangements will be severely disrupted. Each week, there are hundreds of thousands of people crossing the border, a significant proportion of them for work, including providing on-site support services, training, professional engagements or just cross-channel commuting.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  That 2-year transition period only applies in case of Brexit according to the negotiated deal. In the absence of a deal it was always made clear that freedom of movement would end immediately or as soon as practical. See [1] (published in January) about immigration in case of no deal Brexit. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-after-free-movement-ends-if-theres-no-deal/immigration-from-30-march-2019-if-there-is-no-deal https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-af...
emptyfile 7y ago
The whole point of this article is that your current, new, Home Secretary wants to change that policy.
BjoernKW 7y ago
Considering the Windrush scandal the UK doesn't exactly have the best track record with dealing with immigration issues. The authorities might - either conveniently or due to incompetence - lose relevant documents in the future, at which point you might not be able to prove anymore that you've already had a leave to stay in the UK before 31 October 2019. This also might be used as leverage in upcoming negotiations with the EU.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Exactly. And if you ever plan for applying for citizenship in the future this brief period of legal limbo might stop you from getting it.
randomtask 7y ago
> FYI, The Independent has a reputation for writing ridiculous clickbait articles. When you look into the details things almost always turn out to be much less dramatic than the article made it sound. While more reputable news sources have not yet picked up this story, if it is indeed true, there is a very marked difference between what is claimed in the article and what has been said by the government to date. The article claims that the Home Secretary will attempt to enact secondary legislation to end freedom of movement, while the gov.uk link in your tweet claims that it will be done ASAP through primary legislation. If true this is an important difference as we likely won't know until close to the October 31st deadline whether no deal is actually going to happen (though it is clearly more of a risk now than ever), and it implies that the government plan not to wait until they achieve a majority in parliament for the bill to abolish freedom of movement, but instead plan to abolish it any way they can.
pjc50 7y ago
That links to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-after-free-movement-ends-if-theres-no-deal/immigration-from-30-march-2019-if-there-is-no-deal https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-af... which also says: > 5. Once free movement has ended from 31 October 2019(1), EU citizens and their family members arriving in the UK will be admitted under UK immigration rules and will require permission (leave to enter or remain). Unlike EU free movement, this will not be a rights-based system so those who do not hold valid immigration permission to be in the UK will be here unlawfully and may be liable to enforcement action. This is a crucial difference between UK immigration law and EU free movement law, which does not require permission from the Home Office for a person to be here lawfully. So, what happens to an EU national who is ordinarily resident in the UK but has left briefly and is now returning to the UK? What exactly happens at the border? Which documents do they present to guarantee re-entry? (You quote below the statement that they will be able to show an EU passport, but of course that does not constitute "valid immigration permission to be in the UK")
- tooop 7y ago
  Read the 4th point fully. > The information below is concerned with those EU citizens who arrive in the UK after exit, not those residing here before the UK withdraws from the EU.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    And my question is: at the border, which document does an EU citizen present to distinguish between those two cases?
    - gambiting 7y ago
      None, that's why this whole thing is a farce. Once you register for the Settlement Scheme you do get an email confirming that you did, that's all. But you don't legally have to apply for it until next year anyway, so you might have the full legal right to reside in the UK and not have any document to prove it.
    - 7y ago
pknight 7y ago
That's a very misleading quote. The new Home Secretary wants to institute a different regime from day one of no deal, which deviates from original plans and creates a whole range of issues for EU nationals with and without settled status who are resident. While it is aimed at voters to show that they'll be treating new arrivals differently, the systems and laws and all of the bodies that deal with EU nationals are not equipped to differentiate between existing residents and new arrivals. Only about a third of EU nationals have applied for settled status and this new messaging from the incoming Home Secretary is saying the hostile environment measures must be eagerly applied to all EU nationals without it. Employers, landlords, banks, health service providers and border officials all have the burden to verify a person's legal status and the majority of EU nationals will be unable to demonstrate their status from day one. Their status furthermore isn't protected by primary legislation and for most people only amounts to being in a digital system that must be checked online. Most parties involved in having to check resident's status is not trained in doing that, in so far it is even practicable from day one of no deal. And it most certainly will create discrimination, making it more likely that those that have a harder time demonstrating their rights will be unfairly rejected or skipped over, or be faced with additional burdens to prove status. The real world consequences for people affected could be not finding a place to rent, being evicted, losing a bank account or being unable to open one, being denied health services or being asked to pay for services that should be free, being denied a job, being let go, or simply being skipped over by employers. This all can happen to people who have been in the UK for decades but are unable to easily demonstrate their status. This is not hypothetical stuff, this already happens but the occurrence would jump up by an order of magnitude as the result of the course taken here.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  If only a third a third of the EU nationals applied it means they didn’t want to apply in the first place. The whole process take about 15 minutes, especially if you have an social insurance number.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Or they don't intend to stay. I wonder what the consequences of a mass exodus would be.

rmoriz 7y ago

But what about re-entry when coming back from abroad?

wickerman 7y ago
You'll need to have applied for settled/pre-settled status, I'd imagine, unless an Irish citizen. And then ask the immigration officer to check gov.uk for you, because there's no actual legal paper or ID issued that you can carry with you.
DangerousPie 7y ago
> 10. Until 31 December 2020, EU citizens will be able to enter the UK by showing either a valid national identity card or a passport.
- starfallg 7y ago
  This gets increasing complicated with third-country dependants of EU citizens thrown into the mix. There are significant numbers of people in this situation living in the UK or entering on a regular basis. Brexit is a complete omnishambles and indicative of wider problems in British media and political discourse.
tetha 7y ago
I'm in germany and I have a friend who lives here with his family, but they are still british citizens. So, from our side of the channel: Pretty much everyone in their situation has been contacted by the german government - temporary allowances of residences are prepared for this situation for everyone in their families. All they have to do after an exit is to go to their local citizens bureau in order to sign and collect the papers. After that, they are fine until a more permanent solution is found. However, to answer your question: Coming back from abroad is a complicated thing, even from France inside the EU. Technically, after a hard brexit and without these temporary papers, they are citizens of a foreign nation and the german state has no diplomatic relationship with this state. As such, they could get detained or denied entry if they run into some kind of border control. As such, it is recommended to not leave the country while this is going on. This had tossed quite the wrench into their vacation plans.

tooop 7y ago

Not sure how exactly that gov.uk link is related to this as the article tells about a new plan so you should really dispute the article by providing evidence that the new home secretary doesn't want to impose anything different.

starfallg 7y ago

No, actually it's as big or bigger than the article suggests. There is no longer the 2-year transition period in which EU workers can work in the UK, and UK workers work in the EU. This means that existing working arrangements will be severely disrupted. Each week, there are hundreds of thousands of people crossing the border, a significant proportion of them for work, including providing on-site support services, training, professional engagements or just cross-channel commuting.

mytailorisrich 7y ago
That 2-year transition period only applies in case of Brexit according to the negotiated deal. In the absence of a deal it was always made clear that freedom of movement would end immediately or as soon as practical. See [1] (published in January) about immigration in case of no deal Brexit. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-after-free-movement-ends-if-theres-no-deal/immigration-from-30-march-2019-if-there-is-no-deal https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-af...

emptyfile 7y ago

The whole point of this article is that your current, new, Home Secretary wants to change that policy.

BjoernKW 7y ago

Considering the Windrush scandal the UK doesn't exactly have the best track record with dealing with immigration issues. The authorities might - either conveniently or due to incompetence - lose relevant documents in the future, at which point you might not be able to prove anymore that you've already had a leave to stay in the UK before 31 October 2019. This also might be used as leverage in upcoming negotiations with the EU.

gambiting 7y ago
Exactly. And if you ever plan for applying for citizenship in the future this brief period of legal limbo might stop you from getting it.

randomtask 7y ago

> FYI, The Independent has a reputation for writing ridiculous clickbait articles. When you look into the details things almost always turn out to be much less dramatic than the article made it sound. While more reputable news sources have not yet picked up this story, if it is indeed true, there is a very marked difference between what is claimed in the article and what has been said by the government to date. The article claims that the Home Secretary will attempt to enact secondary legislation to end freedom of movement, while the gov.uk link in your tweet claims that it will be done ASAP through primary legislation. If true this is an important difference as we likely won't know until close to the October 31st deadline whether no deal is actually going to happen (though it is clearly more of a risk now than ever), and it implies that the government plan not to wait until they achieve a majority in parliament for the bill to abolish freedom of movement, but instead plan to abolish it any way they can.

pjc50 7y ago

That links to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-after-free-movement-ends-if-theres-no-deal/immigration-from-30-march-2019-if-there-is-no-deal https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-immigration-af... which also says: > 5. Once free movement has ended from 31 October 2019(1), EU citizens and their family members arriving in the UK will be admitted under UK immigration rules and will require permission (leave to enter or remain). Unlike EU free movement, this will not be a rights-based system so those who do not hold valid immigration permission to be in the UK will be here unlawfully and may be liable to enforcement action. This is a crucial difference between UK immigration law and EU free movement law, which does not require permission from the Home Office for a person to be here lawfully. So, what happens to an EU national who is ordinarily resident in the UK but has left briefly and is now returning to the UK? What exactly happens at the border? Which documents do they present to guarantee re-entry? (You quote below the statement that they will be able to show an EU passport, but of course that does not constitute "valid immigration permission to be in the UK")

tooop 7y ago
Read the 4th point fully. > The information below is concerned with those EU citizens who arrive in the UK after exit, not those residing here before the UK withdraws from the EU.
- pjc50 7y ago
  And my question is: at the border, which document does an EU citizen present to distinguish between those two cases?
  - gambiting 7y ago
    None, that's why this whole thing is a farce. Once you register for the Settlement Scheme you do get an email confirming that you did, that's all. But you don't legally have to apply for it until next year anyway, so you might have the full legal right to reside in the UK and not have any document to prove it.
  - 7y ago

pknight 7y ago

That's a very misleading quote. The new Home Secretary wants to institute a different regime from day one of no deal, which deviates from original plans and creates a whole range of issues for EU nationals with and without settled status who are resident. While it is aimed at voters to show that they'll be treating new arrivals differently, the systems and laws and all of the bodies that deal with EU nationals are not equipped to differentiate between existing residents and new arrivals. Only about a third of EU nationals have applied for settled status and this new messaging from the incoming Home Secretary is saying the hostile environment measures must be eagerly applied to all EU nationals without it. Employers, landlords, banks, health service providers and border officials all have the burden to verify a person's legal status and the majority of EU nationals will be unable to demonstrate their status from day one. Their status furthermore isn't protected by primary legislation and for most people only amounts to being in a digital system that must be checked online. Most parties involved in having to check resident's status is not trained in doing that, in so far it is even practicable from day one of no deal. And it most certainly will create discrimination, making it more likely that those that have a harder time demonstrating their rights will be unfairly rejected or skipped over, or be faced with additional burdens to prove status. The real world consequences for people affected could be not finding a place to rent, being evicted, losing a bank account or being unable to open one, being denied health services or being asked to pay for services that should be free, being denied a job, being let go, or simply being skipped over by employers. This all can happen to people who have been in the UK for decades but are unable to easily demonstrate their status. This is not hypothetical stuff, this already happens but the occurrence would jump up by an order of magnitude as the result of the course taken here.

heavenlyblue 7y ago
If only a third a third of the EU nationals applied it means they didn’t want to apply in the first place. The whole process take about 15 minutes, especially if you have an social insurance number.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Or they don't intend to stay. I wonder what the consequences of a mass exodus would be.