6 ms·

Bitcoin is more empowering for criminals than for law-abiding citizens, true or false? The same cannot be said of cash, in my opinion.

arcticbull 7y ago
True because generously, the only thing Bitcoin adds above and beyond what you can do with cash is skirt the law and pay anyone you want even if it's illegal to do so.
- keymone 7y ago
  wait, what? can i not pay in cash for illegal product/service?
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Well if you want to pay someone on the international sanctions list in cash you're going to need to buy a plane ticket, and check your duffel back of money. If you want to wire it to them, you definitely can't (or if the wire goes through expect a knock on the door). So while in theory, yes, in practice, no.
    - keymone 7y ago
      I can’t even.. First, whatever you’re wiring - isn’t cash pretty much by definition. Second - why is your default example of paying for illegal product/service is about somebody in a different country on an international sanctions list? How about buying drugs on the street? Doesn’t involve planes and duffel bags of money. Does involve cash.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        Scope and breadth of effect, mostly. The AML/KYC/OFAC processes are designed to both enforce international sanctions [1, 2] and also to operate at a more local level [3]. Cryptocurrencies like Monero and Zcash specifically make traceability difficult or impossible. This situation is strictly worse along all axes. Just because it's currently possible to do something illegal (and we're working hard to crack down on that) doesn't mean our new goal should be to enable that faster, cheaper and easier (and not bother with enforcement at all) -- it's regressive. [1] https://cointelegraph.com/news/iran-recognizes-bitcoin-and-crypto-as-an-official-industry-says-mp https://cointelegraph.com/news/iran-recognizes-bitcoin-and-c... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/north-korea-bitcoin-cryptocurrency-blockchain-un-report-a8819446.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... [3] https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/05/03/wall-street-market-silkkietie-valhalla-dark-web-drug-monero-bitcoin-cryptocurrency/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/05/03/wall-street-marke...
        keymone 7y ago
        The question was if it’s possible to pay with cash for illegal products/services. You keep dodging and dancing around easy and obvious answer - of course yes! Now the question becomes - why is it so hard for you to admit that cash is being used for illegal purposes?
        arcticbull 7y ago
        No, I didn't dodge your question, I answered it -- on both a local and global scale. Yes, it is. Of course it is. I didn't think I had to because to say no would be insane and that it went without saying. I don't believe anyone has ever made that argument. However, cash is difficult to transact in material quantities due to it's physical volume, the fact you have to defend it, and the fact that few legitimate businesses accept meaningful quantities. If you want to make a larger purchase you have to deposit it into a bank account somewhere and launder it which is when AML/KYC/OFAC come into play. It's irrelevant to this conversation that cash is being used for illegal purposes, because we're making active attempts to stop that from happening. You're proposing we switch to a technology stack that makes it harder to enforce the law, intentionally, along every axis. That makes this regressive. If that's your argument, own it, but let's not mince words.
        keymone 7y ago
        cash fuels orders of magnitude more illegal activities. It’s hypocritical to go after crypto to solve illegal activities problem when you havent solves them for cash or at least brought down to crypto levels. And lastly - “let’s ban bitcoin because bad people do bad things” is the same argument as “let’s ban encryption because bad people communicate bad things”. If you’re for government control of every aspect of your life, if you’re for asking permission to transact or communicate - we just have completely different world views. Unfortunately there is no middle ground - either you have security or you are backdoored. Either you have financial freedom or you don’t. Governments should target bad people not genuinely useful tools used by bad people. I don’t care that it’s hard - that’s what I pay taxes for, not to yield control over my life even further.
- zaat 7y ago
  This, as well as transferring 2 billion dollars around the world withing few minuets for a few dollars.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    This is a half-baked talking point. If you're saying a single person can't send two billion dollars in cash in the current system, then, great, nobody cares. That's not a problem people have. If you're suggesting international remittences aren't a solved problem at a small scale, I suggest you do some research. Further Bitcoin's wild volatility means that no, you can't send "a few billion dollars" within a "few minutes" for a "few dollars". To send dollars, you first need to pay an exchange a 1% fee to buy BTC, wait a few days for it to clear, pay a BTC transaction fee, wait a few hours for the confirmations, pay the destination exchange a 1% fee, then wait for that to clear. All in you're talking a few dollars, a few days, a few percent and huge volatility risk. Or, you fire up Interactive Brokers and pay mid-market rates for an exchange with a fee of $20 per million, confirmed instantly. Or TransferWise. Or Western Union (believe it or not they're pretty competitive).
    - zaat 7y ago
      Yes, it is half-baked but still carries a kernel of truth. Most people don't need to transfer two billion dollars, but they still have issues with smaller amounts. It is possible to use alternative means, but they will often be more expensive and less flexible. It is true that you need to own BTC to send X dollars, but that is true with regards to any other means - you have to own bank dollars to wire dollars, to get them you have to convert from your local currency or to deposit your "real", cash dollar notes to your bank. And depend on where you are, this may be faster or slower process than converting cash to BTC. Perhaps you are an American and used to have USD available in the banks, consider then having to transfer CHF. There are lots of places where you can buy BTC with cash pretty much immediately. Transferring cash to bank dollars or converting local currency will often take longer and will be more of a hassle. And if you think 1% is bad, try converting currencies at the bank, your credit card or street change places.
      - 7y ago
krapp 7y ago
In theory, Bitcoin is about creating a global anarcho-capitalist economy which can't be taxed by governments or interfered with by law enforcement (irregardless of whether it can be in practice.) It's about empowering people and dis-empowering the state. It just happens that criminals are the ones who find those features more attractive than fiat. And it's kind of funny seeing people here get offended at the idea that criminals would find it useful. That's supposed to be a feature, not a bug.
tumetab1 7y ago
False. No criminal wants a complete digital trail of their transactions.

arcticbull 7y ago

True because generously, the only thing Bitcoin adds above and beyond what you can do with cash is skirt the law and pay anyone you want even if it's illegal to do so.

keymone 7y ago
wait, what? can i not pay in cash for illegal product/service?
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Well if you want to pay someone on the international sanctions list in cash you're going to need to buy a plane ticket, and check your duffel back of money. If you want to wire it to them, you definitely can't (or if the wire goes through expect a knock on the door). So while in theory, yes, in practice, no.
  - keymone 7y ago
    I can’t even.. First, whatever you’re wiring - isn’t cash pretty much by definition. Second - why is your default example of paying for illegal product/service is about somebody in a different country on an international sanctions list? How about buying drugs on the street? Doesn’t involve planes and duffel bags of money. Does involve cash.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Scope and breadth of effect, mostly. The AML/KYC/OFAC processes are designed to both enforce international sanctions [1, 2] and also to operate at a more local level [3]. Cryptocurrencies like Monero and Zcash specifically make traceability difficult or impossible. This situation is strictly worse along all axes. Just because it's currently possible to do something illegal (and we're working hard to crack down on that) doesn't mean our new goal should be to enable that faster, cheaper and easier (and not bother with enforcement at all) -- it's regressive. [1] https://cointelegraph.com/news/iran-recognizes-bitcoin-and-crypto-as-an-official-industry-says-mp https://cointelegraph.com/news/iran-recognizes-bitcoin-and-c... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/north-korea-bitcoin-cryptocurrency-blockchain-un-report-a8819446.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... [3] https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/05/03/wall-street-market-silkkietie-valhalla-dark-web-drug-monero-bitcoin-cryptocurrency/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/05/03/wall-street-marke...
      - keymone 7y ago
        The question was if it’s possible to pay with cash for illegal products/services. You keep dodging and dancing around easy and obvious answer - of course yes! Now the question becomes - why is it so hard for you to admit that cash is being used for illegal purposes?
        arcticbull 7y ago
        No, I didn't dodge your question, I answered it -- on both a local and global scale. Yes, it is. Of course it is. I didn't think I had to because to say no would be insane and that it went without saying. I don't believe anyone has ever made that argument. However, cash is difficult to transact in material quantities due to it's physical volume, the fact you have to defend it, and the fact that few legitimate businesses accept meaningful quantities. If you want to make a larger purchase you have to deposit it into a bank account somewhere and launder it which is when AML/KYC/OFAC come into play. It's irrelevant to this conversation that cash is being used for illegal purposes, because we're making active attempts to stop that from happening. You're proposing we switch to a technology stack that makes it harder to enforce the law, intentionally, along every axis. That makes this regressive. If that's your argument, own it, but let's not mince words.
        keymone 7y ago
        cash fuels orders of magnitude more illegal activities. It’s hypocritical to go after crypto to solve illegal activities problem when you havent solves them for cash or at least brought down to crypto levels. And lastly - “let’s ban bitcoin because bad people do bad things” is the same argument as “let’s ban encryption because bad people communicate bad things”. If you’re for government control of every aspect of your life, if you’re for asking permission to transact or communicate - we just have completely different world views. Unfortunately there is no middle ground - either you have security or you are backdoored. Either you have financial freedom or you don’t. Governments should target bad people not genuinely useful tools used by bad people. I don’t care that it’s hard - that’s what I pay taxes for, not to yield control over my life even further.
zaat 7y ago
This, as well as transferring 2 billion dollars around the world withing few minuets for a few dollars.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  This is a half-baked talking point. If you're saying a single person can't send two billion dollars in cash in the current system, then, great, nobody cares. That's not a problem people have. If you're suggesting international remittences aren't a solved problem at a small scale, I suggest you do some research. Further Bitcoin's wild volatility means that no, you can't send "a few billion dollars" within a "few minutes" for a "few dollars". To send dollars, you first need to pay an exchange a 1% fee to buy BTC, wait a few days for it to clear, pay a BTC transaction fee, wait a few hours for the confirmations, pay the destination exchange a 1% fee, then wait for that to clear. All in you're talking a few dollars, a few days, a few percent and huge volatility risk. Or, you fire up Interactive Brokers and pay mid-market rates for an exchange with a fee of $20 per million, confirmed instantly. Or TransferWise. Or Western Union (believe it or not they're pretty competitive).
  - zaat 7y ago
    Yes, it is half-baked but still carries a kernel of truth. Most people don't need to transfer two billion dollars, but they still have issues with smaller amounts. It is possible to use alternative means, but they will often be more expensive and less flexible. It is true that you need to own BTC to send X dollars, but that is true with regards to any other means - you have to own bank dollars to wire dollars, to get them you have to convert from your local currency or to deposit your "real", cash dollar notes to your bank. And depend on where you are, this may be faster or slower process than converting cash to BTC. Perhaps you are an American and used to have USD available in the banks, consider then having to transfer CHF. There are lots of places where you can buy BTC with cash pretty much immediately. Transferring cash to bank dollars or converting local currency will often take longer and will be more of a hassle. And if you think 1% is bad, try converting currencies at the bank, your credit card or street change places.
    - 7y ago

krapp 7y ago

In theory, Bitcoin is about creating a global anarcho-capitalist economy which can't be taxed by governments or interfered with by law enforcement (irregardless of whether it can be in practice.) It's about empowering people and dis-empowering the state. It just happens that criminals are the ones who find those features more attractive than fiat. And it's kind of funny seeing people here get offended at the idea that criminals would find it useful. That's supposed to be a feature, not a bug.

tumetab1 7y ago

False. No criminal wants a complete digital trail of their transactions.