7 ms·

I wish consumers would take a liking to station wagons again. SUV's are terrible.

jansan 7y ago
Germany has traditionally been a station wagon country. Although SUVs are everywhere now, you still see more station wagons. As I see it, SUVs are used as a status symbol and they have the advantage of an elevated driving position. Station wagons are generally used by people who "do stuff", who have to transport things or drive long distances. It it the car of the practical thinkers. Station wagons are also driven by salesmen who have to travel a lot, because station wagons tend to have a lower fuel consumption due to their smaller drag area. This is especially relevant on our Autobahn, where the higher speeds make aerodynamic drag pretty noticeable. So yes, for practical reasons station wagons are great. I love mine.
- acd 7y ago
  One could make a mix between station wagon and suv. All it requires is height adjustable dampers. Elevation is a classic status symbol think castle locations. Upper class started driving elevated cars SUVs and middle class want to move up in status.
  - petre 7y ago
    It's been done: the Audi Allroad. But it's plagued by damper issues.
    - jansan 7y ago
      Dough de Muro called it the "second worst car ever manufactured in the entire history of the automobile" :) Actually, many upper class cars have height adaptable dampers. I know of one wealthy forest owner who bought the (at that time) super luxury Mercedes 500CL (W215) because the adaptable dampers also made it a great offroad car.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        The W215 is a beast. It's also very scary fast. There is also an upgraded version by AMG (CL55). I highly doubt Mercedes made money on any of them, and as a - former - owners, I was very happy that mine was under warranty because of the stuff that can break on that car and what it typically costs to fix it. The ride height adjustment system is great - when it works - just like the Citroen DS, it is the proverbial magic carpet ride but the technical complexity does not really help.
  - ben-schaaf 7y ago
    The Audi e-tron has adjustable ride height for reduced drag. It automatically lowers the car at higher speeds. Not sure if that's what you mean.
  - muro 7y ago
    You get a much better view from an elevated position, it feels safer than in a lower car.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    IMO SUVs are something that people of low status consider high status. They are primitive and brutal looking vehicles with pretty awful properties as driving machines: high weight, high drag, high center of gravity (which also forces comfort / safety compromises), much less room than station wagons. You can get cars that look and drive much nicer for the same money.
  - rpmisms 7y ago
    That's the Toyota Venza. Technically a wagon, very much lifted.
  - amyjess 7y ago
    The Subaru Outback comes to mind.
- bsder 7y ago
  > the advantage of an elevated driving position One of the big car makers actually had a full psychological workup on different SUV driver cohorts, and small females make up a disproportionate cohort for exactly this reason. The perception is that the higher vantage makes things safer in spite of the reality that the SUV is less safe because it takes more physical strength to actually handle the car in emergency situations.
  - consp 7y ago
    > ... is less safe because it takes more physical strength to actually handle the car in emergency situations. Almost no driver you describe would be able to handle a 2000kg+ car (any type) without power steering and brake assistance which is why they all have this and this is no longer a problem. The higher vantage point in combination with a bigger car also causes more low speed bumps and low speed pedestrian hits, but then again "you" are safe.
orthoxerox 7y ago
Station wagons that can compete with SUVs on price are rare, at least in Europe. Most station wagons are based on premium-ish sedans that can have 1.5x times the price of a Qashqai or an Outlander, not to talk of something like a Duster. Yes, there's Ford Focus SW ans Škoda Octavia, er, Scout(?), but that's about it, and you'll probably get the same amount of boot space if you buy their crossover SUV instead.
- garretraziel 7y ago
  It's better here in Europe with almost all car makers having their own station wagons and a lot of these station wagons are most-sold cars for their respective brands. Skoda Octavia/Fabia/Superb Kombi, Volkswagen Golf Variant, Passat Variant, Ford Focus SW, Toyota Corolla Touring Sports, Citroen C4, Honda Civic Tourer, Fiat Tipo Kombi, Hyundai i30, i40 SW, Kia Ceed SW, Mazda 6 Wagon, Opel Astra/Insignia Sports Tourer, Peugeot 508 SW, Renault Megane Grandtour, Seat Leon ST, Audi A4 Avant, BMW 3/5 Touring, Mercedes Benz B-Class to name a few, not including all those liftbacks, spacebacks and hatchback/kombi hybrids. SUVs/crossovers are on the rise, but I would say that Kombis are still one of the most sold cars in Europe.
bruceb 7y ago
Subaru Outback, (and crosstrek) is a staple of Seattle/Northwest. There is almost literally one on every block.
gexla 7y ago
I don't know if "looks cool" is the same thing as status (probably not) but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road. Maybe the only competitor for worst on the list of cool factor is the mini van. Much of the US is a truck culture. You can drive more places and carry more cargo than anything else. In this case, status becomes proudly declaring yourself as blue collar as opposed to being high status. And have you ever seen a station wagon with a gun rack? SUV's are simply trucks for which the cargo is the family rather than a lawnmower. What are the manufacturers going to do when trucks and SUV's are so popular and have a higher profit margin? Make more SUV's. Maybe car manufacturers even make ridiculous looking compacts as sacrificial models to sell more SUV's. You can have this ridiculous looking golf cart, or you can drive this magnificent tank. Outside the US, SUV's are even popular in SE Asia. Which again I think is part culture (maybe US car culture transmitted through Hollywood) and manufacturer incentive. One of the few dealerships in the fast growing city I live in (Philippines) is loaded with SUV's. If that's all you see on the floor and everyone else is driving one, then that's probably what you are going to drive also.
- King-Aaron 7y ago
  > but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road This applies to practically every American designed car before ~2010
  - cpursley 7y ago
    This is unfair. The US had a long history of very nice looking cars up until the 1980s through 2010s...
    - jansan 7y ago
      True. And Europe is the origin on the Fiat Multipla, which even beats the Pontiac Aztek by a mile when it comes to ugliness.
- systemtest 7y ago
  In Europe, SUVs and crossovers are bought by people with children, back problems or those who think that it will make them look interesting. None of those are “cool”. Unless you like to holler at single moms at the playground boosting about the triple ISO fix childseat attachment. Marketing does a great job into making you think that SUVs are for hip young people with active urban lifestyles but in reality it’s mainly old folks and parents who buy them.
icelancer 7y ago
Keeping the compact pickup truck around would have fended off widescale adoption of the SUV. But no, CAFE killed it [0], so now we have worse MPG issues, no small pickup trucks, and a shitload of SUVs and large trucks instead. Well-intentioned regulation going bad. A story as old as America, really. [0]: https://jalopnik.com/how-the-government-killed-fuel-efficient-cars-and-truck-5948172 https://jalopnik.com/how-the-government-killed-fuel-efficien...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Dirlewanger 7y ago
I used to think the same thing (I still do on principle, but...): The epitome of wanton American capitalism and excess. Every suburban family has one, whether they "need" it or not. Then I started paying a lot more attention to car crashes, in particular this one that happened recently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRxup0WhMo&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRxup0WhMo&feature=youtu.be, skip to 2:20 for the crash). A sedan utterly obliterated by a pickup going 90 mph. Made me realize one of the reasons why people have been moving away from them, because of shit like this. Despite the increased cost of maintenance and gas, I think my next vehicle will be something with a bit more size for more impact absorption.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  Crashworthiness against a wall is almost independent of weight. Crash results against other cars are a function of weight, so yeah, you can crush the other guy instead. It's a very ugly arms race in that sense.

Germany has traditionally been a station wagon country. Although SUVs are everywhere now, you still see more station wagons. As I see it, SUVs are used as a status symbol and they have the advantage of an elevated driving position. Station wagons are generally used by people who "do stuff", who have to transport things or drive long distances. It it the car of the practical thinkers. Station wagons are also driven by salesmen who have to travel a lot, because station wagons tend to have a lower fuel consumption due to their smaller drag area. This is especially relevant on our Autobahn, where the higher speeds make aerodynamic drag pretty noticeable. So yes, for practical reasons station wagons are great. I love mine.

acd 7y ago
One could make a mix between station wagon and suv. All it requires is height adjustable dampers. Elevation is a classic status symbol think castle locations. Upper class started driving elevated cars SUVs and middle class want to move up in status.
- petre 7y ago
  It's been done: the Audi Allroad. But it's plagued by damper issues.
  - jansan 7y ago
    Dough de Muro called it the "second worst car ever manufactured in the entire history of the automobile" :) Actually, many upper class cars have height adaptable dampers. I know of one wealthy forest owner who bought the (at that time) super luxury Mercedes 500CL (W215) because the adaptable dampers also made it a great offroad car.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      The W215 is a beast. It's also very scary fast. There is also an upgraded version by AMG (CL55). I highly doubt Mercedes made money on any of them, and as a - former - owners, I was very happy that mine was under warranty because of the stuff that can break on that car and what it typically costs to fix it. The ride height adjustment system is great - when it works - just like the Citroen DS, it is the proverbial magic carpet ride but the technical complexity does not really help.
- ben-schaaf 7y ago
  The Audi e-tron has adjustable ride height for reduced drag. It automatically lowers the car at higher speeds. Not sure if that's what you mean.
- muro 7y ago
  You get a much better view from an elevated position, it feels safer than in a lower car.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  IMO SUVs are something that people of low status consider high status. They are primitive and brutal looking vehicles with pretty awful properties as driving machines: high weight, high drag, high center of gravity (which also forces comfort / safety compromises), much less room than station wagons. You can get cars that look and drive much nicer for the same money.
- rpmisms 7y ago
  That's the Toyota Venza. Technically a wagon, very much lifted.
- amyjess 7y ago
  The Subaru Outback comes to mind.
bsder 7y ago
> the advantage of an elevated driving position One of the big car makers actually had a full psychological workup on different SUV driver cohorts, and small females make up a disproportionate cohort for exactly this reason. The perception is that the higher vantage makes things safer in spite of the reality that the SUV is less safe because it takes more physical strength to actually handle the car in emergency situations.
- consp 7y ago
  > ... is less safe because it takes more physical strength to actually handle the car in emergency situations. Almost no driver you describe would be able to handle a 2000kg+ car (any type) without power steering and brake assistance which is why they all have this and this is no longer a problem. The higher vantage point in combination with a bigger car also causes more low speed bumps and low speed pedestrian hits, but then again "you" are safe.

orthoxerox 7y ago

Station wagons that can compete with SUVs on price are rare, at least in Europe. Most station wagons are based on premium-ish sedans that can have 1.5x times the price of a Qashqai or an Outlander, not to talk of something like a Duster. Yes, there's Ford Focus SW ans Škoda Octavia, er, Scout(?), but that's about it, and you'll probably get the same amount of boot space if you buy their crossover SUV instead.

garretraziel 7y ago
It's better here in Europe with almost all car makers having their own station wagons and a lot of these station wagons are most-sold cars for their respective brands. Skoda Octavia/Fabia/Superb Kombi, Volkswagen Golf Variant, Passat Variant, Ford Focus SW, Toyota Corolla Touring Sports, Citroen C4, Honda Civic Tourer, Fiat Tipo Kombi, Hyundai i30, i40 SW, Kia Ceed SW, Mazda 6 Wagon, Opel Astra/Insignia Sports Tourer, Peugeot 508 SW, Renault Megane Grandtour, Seat Leon ST, Audi A4 Avant, BMW 3/5 Touring, Mercedes Benz B-Class to name a few, not including all those liftbacks, spacebacks and hatchback/kombi hybrids. SUVs/crossovers are on the rise, but I would say that Kombis are still one of the most sold cars in Europe.

bruceb 7y ago

Subaru Outback, (and crosstrek) is a staple of Seattle/Northwest. There is almost literally one on every block.

gexla 7y ago

I don't know if "looks cool" is the same thing as status (probably not) but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road. Maybe the only competitor for worst on the list of cool factor is the mini van. Much of the US is a truck culture. You can drive more places and carry more cargo than anything else. In this case, status becomes proudly declaring yourself as blue collar as opposed to being high status. And have you ever seen a station wagon with a gun rack? SUV's are simply trucks for which the cargo is the family rather than a lawnmower. What are the manufacturers going to do when trucks and SUV's are so popular and have a higher profit margin? Make more SUV's. Maybe car manufacturers even make ridiculous looking compacts as sacrificial models to sell more SUV's. You can have this ridiculous looking golf cart, or you can drive this magnificent tank. Outside the US, SUV's are even popular in SE Asia. Which again I think is part culture (maybe US car culture transmitted through Hollywood) and manufacturer incentive. One of the few dealerships in the fast growing city I live in (Philippines) is loaded with SUV's. If that's all you see on the floor and everyone else is driving one, then that's probably what you are going to drive also.

King-Aaron 7y ago
> but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road This applies to practically every American designed car before ~2010
- cpursley 7y ago
  This is unfair. The US had a long history of very nice looking cars up until the 1980s through 2010s...
  - jansan 7y ago
    True. And Europe is the origin on the Fiat Multipla, which even beats the Pontiac Aztek by a mile when it comes to ugliness.
systemtest 7y ago
In Europe, SUVs and crossovers are bought by people with children, back problems or those who think that it will make them look interesting. None of those are “cool”. Unless you like to holler at single moms at the playground boosting about the triple ISO fix childseat attachment. Marketing does a great job into making you think that SUVs are for hip young people with active urban lifestyles but in reality it’s mainly old folks and parents who buy them.

icelancer 7y ago

Keeping the compact pickup truck around would have fended off widescale adoption of the SUV. But no, CAFE killed it [0], so now we have worse MPG issues, no small pickup trucks, and a shitload of SUVs and large trucks instead. Well-intentioned regulation going bad. A story as old as America, really. [0]: https://jalopnik.com/how-the-government-killed-fuel-efficient-cars-and-truck-5948172 https://jalopnik.com/how-the-government-killed-fuel-efficien...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Dirlewanger 7y ago

I used to think the same thing (I still do on principle, but...): The epitome of wanton American capitalism and excess. Every suburban family has one, whether they "need" it or not. Then I started paying a lot more attention to car crashes, in particular this one that happened recently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRxup0WhMo&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRxup0WhMo&feature=youtu.be, skip to 2:20 for the crash). A sedan utterly obliterated by a pickup going 90 mph. Made me realize one of the reasons why people have been moving away from them, because of shit like this. Despite the increased cost of maintenance and gas, I think my next vehicle will be something with a bit more size for more impact absorption.

ahartmetz 7y ago
Crashworthiness against a wall is almost independent of weight. Crash results against other cars are a function of weight, so yeah, you can crush the other guy instead. It's a very ugly arms race in that sense.