3 ms·

I consider all these articles about plastic pollution to be a kind of "fake news" because they are completely misleading people as to the nature of the problem.

by mantap 7y ago

I consider all these articles about plastic pollution to be a kind of "fake news" because they are completely misleading people as to the nature of the problem. The plastic waste that is entering the oceans is because people in developing countries that lack waste management systems, dump their trash in rivers and it floats out to sea. The root cause is poverty and corrupt, ineffective governments. It's not a problem that can be resolved by western consumer action or even western legislation.

apatters 7y ago
Western governments absolutely can and do apply geopolitical pressure via measures like sanctions, tariffs and trade agreements. Now whether they have the will to do it over plastic waste (or carbon emissions or democratic governance or human rights) is another matter, because they have only a few tools and there are thousands of priorities competing for those tools. It also doesn't help with leverage when there is a powerful economic actor which doesn't require any of these terms as conditions of doing business: China.
- stevenjohns 7y ago
  Alternatively, instead of starving countries to death[0], maybe Western countries should stop sending their trash to third world countries[1][2]. Perhaps it's not the fault of those poorer countries, but instead the fault of the Enlightened West (those that care about carbon emissions, democratic governance and human rights) illegally dumping their garbage onto other countries[3]? There's something funny about Western governments illegally dumping thousands of tonnes of trash on the shores of poor countries[4] and then people having the audacity to support sanctions - literally punishing the civilians there by starving them through siege - for not having the ability to properly manage the waste. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Effects_on_the_Iraqi_people_during_sanctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Effects... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/tired-of-being-trashed-philippines-ready-to-dump-garbage-in-canada/a-48829282 https://www.dw.com/en/tired-of-being-trashed-philippines-rea... [2] http://www.atchuup.com/countries-used-as-dumping-grounds-of-worlds-trash/ http://www.atchuup.com/countries-used-as-dumping-grounds-of-... [3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/malaysia-to-send-tonnes-of-plastic-waste-back-to-foreign-nations/11159208 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/malaysia-to-send-tonn... [4] http://collections.unu.edu/eserv/UNU:6349/PiP_Report.pdf http://collections.unu.edu/eserv/UNU:6349/PiP_Report.pdf
  - apatters 7y ago
    You're aware that Iraq and the Malaysia are different countries, right? Just checking.
    - stevenjohns 7y ago
      I didn’t realise sieges have different effects depending on which third world country they’re applied to.
mrpopo 7y ago
> The root cause is poverty and corrupt, ineffective governments. The root cause is human nature coupled with literally covering everything in plastic. Effective governments can help put a curb on this by restricting plastic usage. Western governments should stop outsourcing pollution, whether literally (exporting plastic) or figuratively (allowing trade with environmentally unfriendly governments).
nstart 7y ago
This has been repeatedly shown to be only partially true. From Sri Lanka, in bite sized form, the common theme of news of a developed country carelessly sending their junk over to be "managed" [1]. Currently an ongoing mini scandal in Sri Lanka regarding the individuals who were taking non recyclable stuff and were found dumping it into waterways. This doesn't exonerate anyone from what is being done, but the point of entry into the sea for these plastics is not necessarily the point of origin. So take it as we are all in this together. Fighting over who's really to blame is a waste of time. What do we need instead? Working to reduce and helping to direct people to recycle wherever possible. From the perspective of the general engineer on hacker news, use tools at your disposal to further the message as far as possible. Even if someone feels encouraged to recycle mostly as a virtue signal, it's fine if they do it correctly. From developed nations, mandates around plastic consumerism and technology jumps would be great. Basically more nuanced conversations and positive actions vs "not our problem" write offs. [1] https://www.instagram.com/tv/B1OWy8nBK8N/?igshid=1qi3c58kyuewv https://www.instagram.com/tv/B1OWy8nBK8N/?igshid=1qi3c58kyue...
weq 7y ago
This is certainly NOT a waste management issue. As i travelled the world, i noticed one thing. I could always see certain product waste in the same poor regions the world over. Selling plastic to the poor is BIG enterprise. We are talking about countries with no waste management systems because everything they have relied on thus far, as been entirely biogradable. "Trash bin" is not even in their vocabulary. Thats the floor! Plastic is a problem because we have capitalistic enterprises entering new markets, and dumping their plastic, overprocessed foods; on poor unsuspecting populations. These supermarkets outcompete hand-to-plate operations in very little time. These enterprises usually follow resource extraction companies. "Give them money, take their resources", and any money they earn, gets funneled back to a mate, in the form of long life overprocessed goods (palm oil, preservatives banned in developed countries, sugar etc) https://youtu.be/YINCk0zPkWE?t=984 https://youtu.be/YINCk0zPkWE?t=984 (best video i can find at the moment) ie. when a new mine is built, a pipeline is created to extract and export those resources. To fatten up the profit, ships that take minerals away, arrive with overprocessed supermarket goods. The mine employ's local workers who used to live a substance life-style, hand-to-mouth. Now the mine destroys the hand-to-mouth foodchain, and replaces it with a more profitable one. The supeprmarket goods themselves then create health problems. And soon enough, the cycle has been kick started; there is no other way to live - but to depend on the supermarkets, depend on mecidine, which both require money. Need some money for medicine? There is a logger who will help out with that! Good for business, bad for humanity. The relationship between plastic, exploitation and profit is intrinsically linked. Even at the 1st world scale, Coca-Cola products are 1/3 of all plastic waste in the ocean. They do it because its the cheapest way to preseve and export their sugar laced goods. Exploitation is the basis of the business model. Exploit human desires (we are programmed to seek sugar), exploit weak institutions, exploit weak governance, exploit weak enforcement. Hustle the supply chain so only your products are available. Its the only way to maintain a 10% profit increase each year, once u have hyper-optimised every other facet of the production process. Putting a state of the art plastic recycling plant next door to OK Tedi is not going to help. It will just be another parasitic Capitalistic enterprise seeking to exploit, dump and export.

by mantap 7y ago

apatters 7y ago

Western governments absolutely can and do apply geopolitical pressure via measures like sanctions, tariffs and trade agreements. Now whether they have the will to do it over plastic waste (or carbon emissions or democratic governance or human rights) is another matter, because they have only a few tools and there are thousands of priorities competing for those tools. It also doesn't help with leverage when there is a powerful economic actor which doesn't require any of these terms as conditions of doing business: China.

stevenjohns 7y ago
Alternatively, instead of starving countries to death[0], maybe Western countries should stop sending their trash to third world countries[1][2]. Perhaps it's not the fault of those poorer countries, but instead the fault of the Enlightened West (those that care about carbon emissions, democratic governance and human rights) illegally dumping their garbage onto other countries[3]? There's something funny about Western governments illegally dumping thousands of tonnes of trash on the shores of poor countries[4] and then people having the audacity to support sanctions - literally punishing the civilians there by starving them through siege - for not having the ability to properly manage the waste. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Effects_on_the_Iraqi_people_during_sanctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Effects... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/tired-of-being-trashed-philippines-ready-to-dump-garbage-in-canada/a-48829282 https://www.dw.com/en/tired-of-being-trashed-philippines-rea... [2] http://www.atchuup.com/countries-used-as-dumping-grounds-of-worlds-trash/ http://www.atchuup.com/countries-used-as-dumping-grounds-of-... [3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/malaysia-to-send-tonnes-of-plastic-waste-back-to-foreign-nations/11159208 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/malaysia-to-send-tonn... [4] http://collections.unu.edu/eserv/UNU:6349/PiP_Report.pdf http://collections.unu.edu/eserv/UNU:6349/PiP_Report.pdf
- apatters 7y ago
  You're aware that Iraq and the Malaysia are different countries, right? Just checking.
  - stevenjohns 7y ago
    I didn’t realise sieges have different effects depending on which third world country they’re applied to.

mrpopo 7y ago

> The root cause is poverty and corrupt, ineffective governments. The root cause is human nature coupled with literally covering everything in plastic. Effective governments can help put a curb on this by restricting plastic usage. Western governments should stop outsourcing pollution, whether literally (exporting plastic) or figuratively (allowing trade with environmentally unfriendly governments).

nstart 7y ago

This has been repeatedly shown to be only partially true. From Sri Lanka, in bite sized form, the common theme of news of a developed country carelessly sending their junk over to be "managed" [1]. Currently an ongoing mini scandal in Sri Lanka regarding the individuals who were taking non recyclable stuff and were found dumping it into waterways. This doesn't exonerate anyone from what is being done, but the point of entry into the sea for these plastics is not necessarily the point of origin. So take it as we are all in this together. Fighting over who's really to blame is a waste of time. What do we need instead? Working to reduce and helping to direct people to recycle wherever possible. From the perspective of the general engineer on hacker news, use tools at your disposal to further the message as far as possible. Even if someone feels encouraged to recycle mostly as a virtue signal, it's fine if they do it correctly. From developed nations, mandates around plastic consumerism and technology jumps would be great. Basically more nuanced conversations and positive actions vs "not our problem" write offs. [1] https://www.instagram.com/tv/B1OWy8nBK8N/?igshid=1qi3c58kyuewv https://www.instagram.com/tv/B1OWy8nBK8N/?igshid=1qi3c58kyue...

weq 7y ago

This is certainly NOT a waste management issue. As i travelled the world, i noticed one thing. I could always see certain product waste in the same poor regions the world over. Selling plastic to the poor is BIG enterprise. We are talking about countries with no waste management systems because everything they have relied on thus far, as been entirely biogradable. "Trash bin" is not even in their vocabulary. Thats the floor! Plastic is a problem because we have capitalistic enterprises entering new markets, and dumping their plastic, overprocessed foods; on poor unsuspecting populations. These supermarkets outcompete hand-to-plate operations in very little time. These enterprises usually follow resource extraction companies. "Give them money, take their resources", and any money they earn, gets funneled back to a mate, in the form of long life overprocessed goods (palm oil, preservatives banned in developed countries, sugar etc) https://youtu.be/YINCk0zPkWE?t=984 https://youtu.be/YINCk0zPkWE?t=984 (best video i can find at the moment) ie. when a new mine is built, a pipeline is created to extract and export those resources. To fatten up the profit, ships that take minerals away, arrive with overprocessed supermarket goods. The mine employ's local workers who used to live a substance life-style, hand-to-mouth. Now the mine destroys the hand-to-mouth foodchain, and replaces it with a more profitable one. The supeprmarket goods themselves then create health problems. And soon enough, the cycle has been kick started; there is no other way to live - but to depend on the supermarkets, depend on mecidine, which both require money. Need some money for medicine? There is a logger who will help out with that! Good for business, bad for humanity. The relationship between plastic, exploitation and profit is intrinsically linked. Even at the 1st world scale, Coca-Cola products are 1/3 of all plastic waste in the ocean. They do it because its the cheapest way to preseve and export their sugar laced goods. Exploitation is the basis of the business model. Exploit human desires (we are programmed to seek sugar), exploit weak institutions, exploit weak governance, exploit weak enforcement. Hustle the supply chain so only your products are available. Its the only way to maintain a 10% profit increase each year, once u have hyper-optimised every other facet of the production process. Putting a state of the art plastic recycling plant next door to OK Tedi is not going to help. It will just be another parasitic Capitalistic enterprise seeking to exploit, dump and export.