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It’s pretty telling to me that this author (“the editorial director of the Bloomberg New Economy”) is so quick to dismiss full democracy. The people of Hong Kon

It’s pretty telling to me that this author (“the editorial director of the Bloomberg New Economy”) is so quick to dismiss full democracy. The people of Hong Kong are asking for full democracy are they not? If the people are asking for it why on earth is the author so willing to accept that this is out of the question? They do not want more puppets, even if appeasement might succeed...

Zafira 7y ago
I would argue it needs to be measured steps to get to that point. Hong Kong has seen that it is going to have a lot of its autonomy stripped away and that peaceful, sustained protests are more or less ignored, which is why it deteriorated into this. It's a tremendously patronizing attitude that Beijing has towards everyone; my suspicion is that Beijing views Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as wayward children that need to be brought back into the fold.
- roenxi 7y ago
  You can't change who has final say in measured steps though; it is not a half-and-half proposition. It might be theoretically possible, but the complexity of such a system isn't at all stable and pressure can build quite quickly. It looks like China has been taking very mild measured steps towards change and it has resulted in the streets being clogged with protestors in ~20 years. Ultimately the people who control the army get to say what the rules are.
irjustin 7y ago
Why do you think the author is wrong? In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong So yes, people of Hong Kong are asking true universal suffrage just as you say, but I understand the sentiment to dismiss the claim because... how do you get there? It is literally a path that is blocked/unseeable with out some form of miracle. I'm legitimately asking - protest all you want, bring the city to a halt. What incentive does China have to allow it to remain a full democracy?
- altcognito 7y ago
  It works well. Arrogance assumes that you must impose your will upon others.
- bostik 7y ago
  > In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. Why do you think China has any intention of keeping their end of that contract? (And I'm not being snarky either.) Contracts in general are done between parties of approximately equal power, or in lieue of that, in an environment where a third party has sufficient power over all signatories. The only sane position is to take the most cynical one: assume that anyone and everyone will attempt to break the rules of the contract at every opportunity, if it benefits them. Everyone is immoral. And the only ones who play fair are those who don't know how to cheat well enough.
Aperocky 7y ago
Telling for what? Being realistic? It’s easy to get high on your moral highground and start pointing fingers. Xi will not accept democracy in HK is a realistic evaluation as opposed to what from you?
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't cross into getting personal or taking HN threads further into flamewar. Both of those are the opposite direction to where we want threads to go here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jessaustin 7y ago
You've misunderstood this part. TFA posits that democracy is impossible while HK is under Chinese Communist Party control. That is a statement about the Chinese Communist Party, not about the people of Hong Kong.
alex_c 7y ago
In context of that paragraph, that should be read as “Full democracy, of course, has always been out of the question [for Xi]”. What the author is willing to accept is irrelevant - the question is what is China willing to accept.

Zafira 7y ago

I would argue it needs to be measured steps to get to that point. Hong Kong has seen that it is going to have a lot of its autonomy stripped away and that peaceful, sustained protests are more or less ignored, which is why it deteriorated into this. It's a tremendously patronizing attitude that Beijing has towards everyone; my suspicion is that Beijing views Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as wayward children that need to be brought back into the fold.

roenxi 7y ago
You can't change who has final say in measured steps though; it is not a half-and-half proposition. It might be theoretically possible, but the complexity of such a system isn't at all stable and pressure can build quite quickly. It looks like China has been taking very mild measured steps towards change and it has resulted in the streets being clogged with protestors in ~20 years. Ultimately the people who control the army get to say what the rules are.

irjustin 7y ago

Why do you think the author is wrong? In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong So yes, people of Hong Kong are asking true universal suffrage just as you say, but I understand the sentiment to dismiss the claim because... how do you get there? It is literally a path that is blocked/unseeable with out some form of miracle. I'm legitimately asking - protest all you want, bring the city to a halt. What incentive does China have to allow it to remain a full democracy?

altcognito 7y ago
It works well. Arrogance assumes that you must impose your will upon others.
bostik 7y ago
> In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. Why do you think China has any intention of keeping their end of that contract? (And I'm not being snarky either.) Contracts in general are done between parties of approximately equal power, or in lieue of that, in an environment where a third party has sufficient power over all signatories. The only sane position is to take the most cynical one: assume that anyone and everyone will attempt to break the rules of the contract at every opportunity, if it benefits them. Everyone is immoral. And the only ones who play fair are those who don't know how to cheat well enough.

Aperocky 7y ago

Telling for what? Being realistic? It’s easy to get high on your moral highground and start pointing fingers. Xi will not accept democracy in HK is a realistic evaluation as opposed to what from you?

dang 7y ago
Please don't cross into getting personal or taking HN threads further into flamewar. Both of those are the opposite direction to where we want threads to go here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jessaustin 7y ago

You've misunderstood this part. TFA posits that democracy is impossible while HK is under Chinese Communist Party control. That is a statement about the Chinese Communist Party, not about the people of Hong Kong.

alex_c 7y ago

In context of that paragraph, that should be read as “Full democracy, of course, has always been out of the question [for Xi]”. What the author is willing to accept is irrelevant - the question is what is China willing to accept.