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Kids in Japan lead carefree "be home by dark" lives up until late middle school and high school, when they start studying 4+hrs/day and sleeping <5hrs/night to

Kids in Japan lead carefree "be home by dark" lives up until late middle school and high school, when they start studying 4+hrs/day and sleeping <5hrs/night to prep for standardized tests. I don't think Japan is a horrific dystopia for teens but it's hardly the "let kids be kids" culture that America of yesteryear (apparently) was.

Iv 7y ago
Helping raise a teenager in Japan, it is pretty close to a dystopia. The idea that students could have free time seems to be frightening to the whole education system.
- mikekchar 7y ago
  I wrote a big sibling post, but I wanted to just point out that schools do tend to use up student's time. Students are required to enter a club and often these clubs are 6 days a week, so compared to the west, students have no individual free time. I know many (most) western parents think this is awful, but most of the students I had loved club and never wanted to go home (we had to turn the lights off at the tennis courts and even then some students would try to play in the dark!) Some students hate club and we had clubs for students that hated club (unfortunately the English club was one of them). They show up for an hour a week and go home. It depends on the principal, though. Some principals are very much opposed to that idea, so if you don't want your kids to spend a lot of time at school it pays to investigate schools that will accomodate you. I will admit that I like Japanese schools and find them dramatically better than anything else I've experienced, so I'm biased.
  - Iv 7y ago
    Our teenager is not into sports. The school only offers one non-sport club, the culture club, but, in the words of the principal "it is only for people who have a handicap and can't go to a sports club." I was appalled. We asked if club membership is mandatory, we got a very Japanese answer "It is not mandatory but everyone does it, please do it too" I remember, discussing with the head of the kendo club why she was into kendo, she said she was not really into it. She could not answer why she chose it or spends so much time there. I think acceptance and resignation are things that are taught very early in the Japanese education system. And don't get me started on the sempai/kohai system that just normalizes peer pressure and a generational hierarchy. I have seen people in their 60s still obeying their one year older sempai! I did not like the school system I went through in France, but almost every thing I disliked is magnified in Japan. Yeah, the students clean up their classrooms and the admins do their paperwork correctly that's about all I see as advantages. All the rest is about formatting perfect wage slaves with no room fro creativity or self-search.
    - nicolas_t 7y ago
      What didn't you like about the school system in France? I rather liked that tests tended to be mostly essay or problem based with just a few questions to work through and show creative thinking and not multiple choice tests like in so many countries. I do like Japanese education in primary school from what I've seen so far and I will probably enrol my kids in a Japanese primary school instead of an international French school when the time comes
      - Iv 7y ago
        From what I hear in other countries, the school system in France is not too bad in comparison. I think I dislike school in general as I think many of the concepts it is based on are outdated and should be improved. Fixed, imposed curriculum over the year with fixed, determined schedule on subjects. No collaboration between students, just competition. Arbitrary rules and authority bestowed upon random adults. Grades that are geared towards establishing a hierarchy rather than helping progress. Lack of interactivity and experimentation, etc... Since I read more about it, I see France is pretty correct in comparison, with Japan being a conceptual opposite of what I think ideal. I'll probably leave my son in primary in Japan, but I don't think it is a good idea after that.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      Don't get me wrong. I completely understand your frustration (or I think I do anyway). It's a very cultural thing. Many of the Brazilians in my area hate the Japanese school system too. The Japanese school system is great at indoctrinating people into the Japanese culture. It instills certain societal values -- many of which are just not shared by people who didn't grow up here. However, it does quite a good job at that -- to the point where if I was raising kids in Japan and I thought my kids would likely remain in Japan as adults, I think it would be a very great injustice to deprive them of Japanese schools. I can read your message and understand how you feel. Japan is a hard place to live in as a foreigner. The culture is not like a buffet. You can't take the bits you like and leave the other bits aside. This is especially challenging if you are raising kids, since the school system is going to instill Japanese values in your kids whether you like it or not. A few people have asked me if they should raise kids here and I think it's totally great, but only if you are ready to buy into the Japanese culture completely. If not, it's going to be -- as you put it: appalling.
mikekchar 7y ago
It's easy to get led into thinking this is ubiquitous, but it really isn't. Life gets difficult for school children around year 3 min middle school (about grade 9). The long and the short of it is that if you want to get a really top job, then you need to come from a top university, which means that you usually need to come from a top highschool, which means that you must get a good mark on your high school entrance example. Lately it's gotten even a bit more difficult because you are allowed to apply for only 1 public high school and one private high school (unlike the UK, "public" and "private" refers to what you would normally think -- public is publicly funded and private is privately funded). You can always pay your way into a top school if you have enough money, but generally if you want to get in you need a good result on your entrance exam. Here's the thing most people don't understand: most students don't care. And by most, I mean about 80%. Only 1/4 of high schools are high performing high schools where students are expected to go on to university. Even with that, most students will prefer to go to a high school that is close to them or where their friends are going. Only a few students choose (or are pushed by their parents) to go to the really top schools. Even with low level schools, you can still make it to a respectable university. The school I taught in is one of the lowest public schools in the prefecture (one year, due to lack of enrollment, we accepted students who scored 0 on the entrance exam! Seriously, you have to be trying to get zero!) However, we usually sent 4 or 5 students to Nagoya university, which is a decent university. Several of my students when to Shizuoka university too -- which is not a great university, but definitely good enough to get a good job in Shizuoka prefecture. At low level school, students do not study. I mean, a few study because they like studying, but never once did my students do their homework! Students are carefree, happy and energetic. Compared to the highschools I went to in Canada (I moved around a bit), it is absolutely night and day. It's like comparing prison to a holiday camp. At high level schools, it's really, really hard work and students stay late to study every day (usually coming home around 8 pm). However, the vast majority of the students like studying! And even if you somehow get pushed into a top level school, every school has a kind of "escape hatch" where you basically decide "academics are not for me -- I'm going to become a factory worker". This is not to say that there isn't pressure to succeed, but the reputation Japanese schools have is completely undeserved. And to get to the normal argument: what about suicide rates. We can compare suicide rates by age group in Japan [1] and the US [2]. For Japan under 24 (2014) the number is 1814 (0.0000143 per capita) and for the US (2016) it is 6159 (0.0000190). In other words the US youth suicide rate is about 25% higher than Japan's (Why does Japan have a reputation for high suicide rate? Because older people commit suicide -- it is very rare for young people to do so). [1] (pdf) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=2ahUKEwjAqrKP5o3kAhWryYsBHXPUAMIQFjAFegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fmental_health%2Fsuicide-prevention%2Fcountry-profiles%2FJPN.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0N-_9DYHjs3_m90EvHyHXv https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c... [2] (scroll down to table) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States
knolax 7y ago
> Kids in Japan lead carefree "be home by dark" lives up until late middle school and high school, when they start studying 4+hrs/day and sleeping <5hrs/night to prep for standardized tests. In my experience the same's true for upper-middle class Americans.
- learc83 7y ago
  I've never heard of anything outside of a few edge cases doing anything like that here. It's definitely not the norm for upper-middle class kids.
euske 7y ago
I think this is more of an adult's problem. The transition from kids to teens and adults is awkward everywhere, but it's particularly bad in Japan, as they're pretty much coerced and funneled into the workaholic (and misogynistic) society. But when kids are being kids, they're fine.
- oska 7y ago
  > (and misogynistic) society This word is becoming way over-used (and thus losing its meaning). There are real misogynists and real misogynistic behaviour; I can think of a prominent media identity in my own country who is definitely a misogynist. But misogyny is not simple sexism; it is active hating and dislike of women, and words and actions that show you hold them in complete contempt. I don't think that word can be applied across any society; it's an individual pathology, not a cultural pattern.
rangibaby 7y ago
> Kids in Japan lead carefree "be home by dark" lives up until late middle school and high school, when they start studying 4+hrs/day and sleeping <5hrs/night to prep for standardized tests. I don't think Japan is a horrific dystopia for teens but it's hardly the "let kids be kids" culture that America of yesteryear (apparently) was. I think that time of Japanese kids' life is actually when they are the most free, they can goof off and do pretty much whatever they want as long inside and outside of school and no one will bother them (parents and teachers likewise), as long as their test scores are OK, that's one of the reasons that 15 is considered the start of the "best years of your life" (seishun).
- Noos 7y ago
  Actually from what i read, it's not childhood..it's college. Once they are in college, they've made it. It's over. And college in general is not as vital as in the usa, because the Japanese hire the person not the projects or the knowledge. College is a breather between cram hell and salaried life.

Iv 7y ago

Helping raise a teenager in Japan, it is pretty close to a dystopia. The idea that students could have free time seems to be frightening to the whole education system.

mikekchar 7y ago
I wrote a big sibling post, but I wanted to just point out that schools do tend to use up student's time. Students are required to enter a club and often these clubs are 6 days a week, so compared to the west, students have no individual free time. I know many (most) western parents think this is awful, but most of the students I had loved club and never wanted to go home (we had to turn the lights off at the tennis courts and even then some students would try to play in the dark!) Some students hate club and we had clubs for students that hated club (unfortunately the English club was one of them). They show up for an hour a week and go home. It depends on the principal, though. Some principals are very much opposed to that idea, so if you don't want your kids to spend a lot of time at school it pays to investigate schools that will accomodate you. I will admit that I like Japanese schools and find them dramatically better than anything else I've experienced, so I'm biased.
- Iv 7y ago
  Our teenager is not into sports. The school only offers one non-sport club, the culture club, but, in the words of the principal "it is only for people who have a handicap and can't go to a sports club." I was appalled. We asked if club membership is mandatory, we got a very Japanese answer "It is not mandatory but everyone does it, please do it too" I remember, discussing with the head of the kendo club why she was into kendo, she said she was not really into it. She could not answer why she chose it or spends so much time there. I think acceptance and resignation are things that are taught very early in the Japanese education system. And don't get me started on the sempai/kohai system that just normalizes peer pressure and a generational hierarchy. I have seen people in their 60s still obeying their one year older sempai! I did not like the school system I went through in France, but almost every thing I disliked is magnified in Japan. Yeah, the students clean up their classrooms and the admins do their paperwork correctly that's about all I see as advantages. All the rest is about formatting perfect wage slaves with no room fro creativity or self-search.
  - nicolas_t 7y ago
    What didn't you like about the school system in France? I rather liked that tests tended to be mostly essay or problem based with just a few questions to work through and show creative thinking and not multiple choice tests like in so many countries. I do like Japanese education in primary school from what I've seen so far and I will probably enrol my kids in a Japanese primary school instead of an international French school when the time comes
    - Iv 7y ago
      From what I hear in other countries, the school system in France is not too bad in comparison. I think I dislike school in general as I think many of the concepts it is based on are outdated and should be improved. Fixed, imposed curriculum over the year with fixed, determined schedule on subjects. No collaboration between students, just competition. Arbitrary rules and authority bestowed upon random adults. Grades that are geared towards establishing a hierarchy rather than helping progress. Lack of interactivity and experimentation, etc... Since I read more about it, I see France is pretty correct in comparison, with Japan being a conceptual opposite of what I think ideal. I'll probably leave my son in primary in Japan, but I don't think it is a good idea after that.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    Don't get me wrong. I completely understand your frustration (or I think I do anyway). It's a very cultural thing. Many of the Brazilians in my area hate the Japanese school system too. The Japanese school system is great at indoctrinating people into the Japanese culture. It instills certain societal values -- many of which are just not shared by people who didn't grow up here. However, it does quite a good job at that -- to the point where if I was raising kids in Japan and I thought my kids would likely remain in Japan as adults, I think it would be a very great injustice to deprive them of Japanese schools. I can read your message and understand how you feel. Japan is a hard place to live in as a foreigner. The culture is not like a buffet. You can't take the bits you like and leave the other bits aside. This is especially challenging if you are raising kids, since the school system is going to instill Japanese values in your kids whether you like it or not. A few people have asked me if they should raise kids here and I think it's totally great, but only if you are ready to buy into the Japanese culture completely. If not, it's going to be -- as you put it: appalling.

mikekchar 7y ago

It's easy to get led into thinking this is ubiquitous, but it really isn't. Life gets difficult for school children around year 3 min middle school (about grade 9). The long and the short of it is that if you want to get a really top job, then you need to come from a top university, which means that you usually need to come from a top highschool, which means that you must get a good mark on your high school entrance example. Lately it's gotten even a bit more difficult because you are allowed to apply for only 1 public high school and one private high school (unlike the UK, "public" and "private" refers to what you would normally think -- public is publicly funded and private is privately funded). You can always pay your way into a top school if you have enough money, but generally if you want to get in you need a good result on your entrance exam. Here's the thing most people don't understand: most students don't care. And by most, I mean about 80%. Only 1/4 of high schools are high performing high schools where students are expected to go on to university. Even with that, most students will prefer to go to a high school that is close to them or where their friends are going. Only a few students choose (or are pushed by their parents) to go to the really top schools. Even with low level schools, you can still make it to a respectable university. The school I taught in is one of the lowest public schools in the prefecture (one year, due to lack of enrollment, we accepted students who scored 0 on the entrance exam! Seriously, you have to be trying to get zero!) However, we usually sent 4 or 5 students to Nagoya university, which is a decent university. Several of my students when to Shizuoka university too -- which is not a great university, but definitely good enough to get a good job in Shizuoka prefecture. At low level school, students do not study. I mean, a few study because they like studying, but never once did my students do their homework! Students are carefree, happy and energetic. Compared to the highschools I went to in Canada (I moved around a bit), it is absolutely night and day. It's like comparing prison to a holiday camp. At high level schools, it's really, really hard work and students stay late to study every day (usually coming home around 8 pm). However, the vast majority of the students like studying! And even if you somehow get pushed into a top level school, every school has a kind of "escape hatch" where you basically decide "academics are not for me -- I'm going to become a factory worker". This is not to say that there isn't pressure to succeed, but the reputation Japanese schools have is completely undeserved. And to get to the normal argument: what about suicide rates. We can compare suicide rates by age group in Japan [1] and the US [2]. For Japan under 24 (2014) the number is 1814 (0.0000143 per capita) and for the US (2016) it is 6159 (0.0000190). In other words the US youth suicide rate is about 25% higher than Japan's (Why does Japan have a reputation for high suicide rate? Because older people commit suicide -- it is very rare for young people to do so). [1] (pdf) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=2ahUKEwjAqrKP5o3kAhWryYsBHXPUAMIQFjAFegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fmental_health%2Fsuicide-prevention%2Fcountry-profiles%2FJPN.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0N-_9DYHjs3_m90EvHyHXv https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c... [2] (scroll down to table) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

knolax 7y ago

learc83 7y ago
I've never heard of anything outside of a few edge cases doing anything like that here. It's definitely not the norm for upper-middle class kids.

euske 7y ago

I think this is more of an adult's problem. The transition from kids to teens and adults is awkward everywhere, but it's particularly bad in Japan, as they're pretty much coerced and funneled into the workaholic (and misogynistic) society. But when kids are being kids, they're fine.

oska 7y ago
> (and misogynistic) society This word is becoming way over-used (and thus losing its meaning). There are real misogynists and real misogynistic behaviour; I can think of a prominent media identity in my own country who is definitely a misogynist. But misogyny is not simple sexism; it is active hating and dislike of women, and words and actions that show you hold them in complete contempt. I don't think that word can be applied across any society; it's an individual pathology, not a cultural pattern.

rangibaby 7y ago

> Kids in Japan lead carefree "be home by dark" lives up until late middle school and high school, when they start studying 4+hrs/day and sleeping <5hrs/night to prep for standardized tests. I don't think Japan is a horrific dystopia for teens but it's hardly the "let kids be kids" culture that America of yesteryear (apparently) was. I think that time of Japanese kids' life is actually when they are the most free, they can goof off and do pretty much whatever they want as long inside and outside of school and no one will bother them (parents and teachers likewise), as long as their test scores are OK, that's one of the reasons that 15 is considered the start of the "best years of your life" (seishun).

Noos 7y ago
Actually from what i read, it's not childhood..it's college. Once they are in college, they've made it. It's over. And college in general is not as vital as in the usa, because the Japanese hire the person not the projects or the knowledge. College is a breather between cram hell and salaried life.