6 ms·

That's actually not a good deal; again, this replies to legacy airlines. They don't refund your fare, as it's used to pay for your replacement flight, and most

by imajes 16y ago

That's actually not a good deal; again, this replies to legacy airlines. They don't refund your fare, as it's used to pay for your replacement flight, and most legacy flights are > $200 R/T. That leaves you with $200-$400, which is not a particularly great ROI. (miles, however, are usually MUCH better comp). Note at that point, a delay could easily be "next flight" which may be the following day -- which could incur another hotel night or extra costs for parking, both which kill the comp. Finally, note there is no law that applies for domestic flights. For example, see Delta's actual policy for domestic flights: http://www.delta.com/help/faqs/suspended_travel/index.jsp#handle http://www.delta.com/help/faqs/suspended_travel/index.jsp#ha... -- at best, you get money to spend on delta products.

nkurz 16y ago
Again, I think you are mistaken. This may be partly my fault due to the missed quote above, but I don't think you understand the way bumping works in the US. Perhaps this page will be clearer: http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm#overbooking http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm#overbo... The law definitely applies to domestic flights. It's actually international where it gets trickier. Whether it's a good deal or not depends on your urgency in getting to your destination. I've probably successfully volunteered to be bumped about 6-8 times in my life, and have been satisfied with compensation offered, which usually is equivalent to a voucher for a free round-trip ticket. It has also included an overnight hotel voucher in couple of cases where it was necessary. I've never been bumped involuntarily, likely because there is always a volunteer willing to take some offer the airline will make. The highest I've received (international with the next flight in the morning) was an $800 voucher, presumably because the alternative to the airline was $800 cash. But as always, your mileage may vary.
- imajes 16y ago
  From the DOT page: DOT has not mandated the form or amount of compensation that airlines offer to volunteers. DOT does, however, require airlines to advise any volunteer whether he or she might be involuntarily bumped and, if that were to occur, the amount of compensation that would be due. Carriers can negotiate with their passengers for mutually acceptable compensation. In other words, it's very much down to how you can negotiate with the airline to derive value. :)
  - cookiecaper 16y ago
    I tend to doubt you'd be able to negotiate very far with the gate agent. Negotiation is rare in consumer-business transactions in the US, and in the few cases where it is normal practice, consumers absolutely loathe it (generally because there's no real "negotiation" going on anyway, I guess). Americans don't like to barter, they just like things automatically as favorable as possible, and I'd be surprised if your gate agents have any authority to do anything other than follow a three-step simple elevation process like: "Will you take $50? $100? $200?" If high number is rejected, the agent is probably obliged to move on. This is not really negotiation, but a scripted process of elevation that some know how to exploit for maximum benefit and some don't.
    - nkurz 16y ago
      It is usually done as a uniform price auction, with the airline upping the offer until they have enough volunteers. All volunteers usually receive the same (best) compensation regardless of what level they first agree to give up their seat. At least in my experience, you are right that it is not possible to negotiate directly with a gate agent, but then again I'm sure those with superior negotiating skill can negotiate just about anything.
  - nkurz 16y ago
    Yes, if you volunteer the compensation is entirely negotiable: you could even choose to take nothing. Whereas if you are bumped involuntarily there is a legally mandated compensation scheme. These rules apply to all flights departing from a US airport.
    - encoderer 16y ago
      Except if they can somehow argue "act of god." A friend was bumped from a flight because an earlier flight that day was canceled due to weather. He called and complained about it and was told by some gov't agency that in that case his bump was due to weather. Even though my take on it was... he was bumped because the airline decided to give his seat to a more valuable customer. And the opposite nearly happened... My dad, his wife and my half sister were flying down to meet me in Florida a few months ago. In his case, an earlier flight was canceled due to mechanical breakdown. It looked like they would all 3 be bumped and he was a little pleased over the idea of a $1200 windfall. In the end he got on the plane. I suppose there weren't enough Mileage Plus Elite members on the earlier flight that needed seats.
rprasad 16y ago
I don't think you actually read Delta's policy. Volunteers get vouchers/miles good only on Delta (or partner) flights, but involuntarily bumped passengers get comped in accordance with the US DOT rules. Those rules require the airlines to pay for hotel costs incurred because of the involuntary bump. The cash compensation is in addition to reimbursement for costs borne by the traveler because of the bumping. Also, miles only trump cash if you are close to reaching a significant plateau (i.e., upgraded frequent flyer membership). Otherwise, the restrictions on miles make them much worse then cash you can spend anywhere.
- imajes 16y ago
  You're both right and wrong here. Firstly, there are almost never involuntary bumps. Someone will always take money. It's basic economics and it'll always work. The involuntary bumping is really only ever experienced when there is mass delay (e.g. the snowstorm in nyc here recently). This is because there is significant seat inventory (again, think legacy airlines) and usually people can be re-routed with not much more than a few hours delay and a couple hundred bucks in their pocket. Hotel costs (and food coupons) are only required (for domestic flights) if the delay is overnight or past a certain time-window. Often, again, once you opt-in for voluntary bumping, you agree to be denied access to any other offer that may be made via DOT guidelines. Finally, miles are almost always worth more, if you're on an airline that values them properly (aa & united especially). Note that Citi have often invested in AA's holding company by buying miles: "A total of $2.9 billion in additional liquidity and new aircraft financing was obtained. The $2.9 billion consists of: $1.3 billion in new liquidity, including $1 billion in cash from the advance sale of AAdvantage ™ frequent flyer miles to Citibank and $280 million in cash under a loan facility from GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) secured by owned aircraft; and $1.6 billion in sale-leaseback financing commitments from GECAS for Boeing 737s previously ordered by the Company." - http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/network_enhancements.jsp http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/network_enhancements... Clearly they're not worth nothing. The tipping point however is that it's almost always cheaper for the airline to give you miles than money; the cost of miles can be deferred (and you might not even use them!). This makes them a better deal, as you can almost always exchange them for a greater dollar rate later on (e.g. to get a better hotel rate discount, a free flight elsewhere, etc). (finally pro-tip, most airlines distinguish between miles claimable for status, and miles spendable on flights/services).

by imajes 16y ago

nkurz 16y ago

Again, I think you are mistaken. This may be partly my fault due to the missed quote above, but I don't think you understand the way bumping works in the US. Perhaps this page will be clearer: http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm#overbooking http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm#overbo... The law definitely applies to domestic flights. It's actually international where it gets trickier. Whether it's a good deal or not depends on your urgency in getting to your destination. I've probably successfully volunteered to be bumped about 6-8 times in my life, and have been satisfied with compensation offered, which usually is equivalent to a voucher for a free round-trip ticket. It has also included an overnight hotel voucher in couple of cases where it was necessary. I've never been bumped involuntarily, likely because there is always a volunteer willing to take some offer the airline will make. The highest I've received (international with the next flight in the morning) was an $800 voucher, presumably because the alternative to the airline was $800 cash. But as always, your mileage may vary.

imajes 16y ago
From the DOT page: DOT has not mandated the form or amount of compensation that airlines offer to volunteers. DOT does, however, require airlines to advise any volunteer whether he or she might be involuntarily bumped and, if that were to occur, the amount of compensation that would be due. Carriers can negotiate with their passengers for mutually acceptable compensation. In other words, it's very much down to how you can negotiate with the airline to derive value. :)
- cookiecaper 16y ago
  I tend to doubt you'd be able to negotiate very far with the gate agent. Negotiation is rare in consumer-business transactions in the US, and in the few cases where it is normal practice, consumers absolutely loathe it (generally because there's no real "negotiation" going on anyway, I guess). Americans don't like to barter, they just like things automatically as favorable as possible, and I'd be surprised if your gate agents have any authority to do anything other than follow a three-step simple elevation process like: "Will you take $50? $100? $200?" If high number is rejected, the agent is probably obliged to move on. This is not really negotiation, but a scripted process of elevation that some know how to exploit for maximum benefit and some don't.
  - nkurz 16y ago
    It is usually done as a uniform price auction, with the airline upping the offer until they have enough volunteers. All volunteers usually receive the same (best) compensation regardless of what level they first agree to give up their seat. At least in my experience, you are right that it is not possible to negotiate directly with a gate agent, but then again I'm sure those with superior negotiating skill can negotiate just about anything.
- nkurz 16y ago
  Yes, if you volunteer the compensation is entirely negotiable: you could even choose to take nothing. Whereas if you are bumped involuntarily there is a legally mandated compensation scheme. These rules apply to all flights departing from a US airport.
  - encoderer 16y ago
    Except if they can somehow argue "act of god." A friend was bumped from a flight because an earlier flight that day was canceled due to weather. He called and complained about it and was told by some gov't agency that in that case his bump was due to weather. Even though my take on it was... he was bumped because the airline decided to give his seat to a more valuable customer. And the opposite nearly happened... My dad, his wife and my half sister were flying down to meet me in Florida a few months ago. In his case, an earlier flight was canceled due to mechanical breakdown. It looked like they would all 3 be bumped and he was a little pleased over the idea of a $1200 windfall. In the end he got on the plane. I suppose there weren't enough Mileage Plus Elite members on the earlier flight that needed seats.

rprasad 16y ago

I don't think you actually read Delta's policy. Volunteers get vouchers/miles good only on Delta (or partner) flights, but involuntarily bumped passengers get comped in accordance with the US DOT rules. Those rules require the airlines to pay for hotel costs incurred because of the involuntary bump. The cash compensation is in addition to reimbursement for costs borne by the traveler because of the bumping. Also, miles only trump cash if you are close to reaching a significant plateau (i.e., upgraded frequent flyer membership). Otherwise, the restrictions on miles make them much worse then cash you can spend anywhere.

imajes 16y ago
You're both right and wrong here. Firstly, there are almost never involuntary bumps. Someone will always take money. It's basic economics and it'll always work. The involuntary bumping is really only ever experienced when there is mass delay (e.g. the snowstorm in nyc here recently). This is because there is significant seat inventory (again, think legacy airlines) and usually people can be re-routed with not much more than a few hours delay and a couple hundred bucks in their pocket. Hotel costs (and food coupons) are only required (for domestic flights) if the delay is overnight or past a certain time-window. Often, again, once you opt-in for voluntary bumping, you agree to be denied access to any other offer that may be made via DOT guidelines. Finally, miles are almost always worth more, if you're on an airline that values them properly (aa & united especially). Note that Citi have often invested in AA's holding company by buying miles: "A total of $2.9 billion in additional liquidity and new aircraft financing was obtained. The $2.9 billion consists of: $1.3 billion in new liquidity, including $1 billion in cash from the advance sale of AAdvantage ™ frequent flyer miles to Citibank and $280 million in cash under a loan facility from GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) secured by owned aircraft; and $1.6 billion in sale-leaseback financing commitments from GECAS for Boeing 737s previously ordered by the Company." - http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/network_enhancements.jsp http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/network_enhancements... Clearly they're not worth nothing. The tipping point however is that it's almost always cheaper for the airline to give you miles than money; the cost of miles can be deferred (and you might not even use them!). This makes them a better deal, as you can almost always exchange them for a greater dollar rate later on (e.g. to get a better hotel rate discount, a free flight elsewhere, etc). (finally pro-tip, most airlines distinguish between miles claimable for status, and miles spendable on flights/services).