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The people who are writing resumes like this are doing it to avoid working at a place like yours. It’s a resume for people who want their company to care about

by jakear 7y ago

The people who are writing resumes like this are doing it to avoid working at a place like yours. It’s a resume for people who want their company to care about its employees’ interests.

maxaf 7y ago
I don’t care about my colleagues’ interests. I treat them decently and with respect when we’re working together, but at the close of business we go our separate ways and pursue our interests any way we see fit. Likewise, I don’t expect my coworkers to care about my hobbies. Most of them would be horrified to find out.
- jakear 7y ago
  Yeah. The person writing that resume doesn’t want to work for you, and you’d not hire them. The system works.
  - maxaf 7y ago
    You seem to be defending the perpetuation of bias: hiring based on properties of a person that are orthogonal to technical skill. Bias comes in many shapes and sizes. For example, hiring only white people would be a form of bias. Likewise, hiring only those who share the same interests as the hiring manager is a form of bias. Even looking out for the mere presence of an "interests & hobbies" section on the resume can be considered bias.
    - jakear 7y ago
      If you consider a persons contribution to a company to be purely technical, your argument holds. I take it you might feel that way, I do not.
      - mancerayder 7y ago
        How does a love of dogs and the outdoors (example above) contribute meaningfully to a tech role? How about a love of dance or photography? We go to work to get paid for our skills, not to go camping together or share our love of bird watching. What if a hobby included volunteering at a church, mosque, local GOP or DNC fundraising HQ, re-enacting War simulations or practicing at a gun range? I agree with the posters above who think this is, at best, useless and at worst, a potential for discrimination.
        50656E6973 7y ago
        Perhaps it signals the person has a healthy work life balance. >We go to work to get paid for our skills, not to go camping together or share our love of bird watching. Some people prefer to work on teams where they're treated more like humans and less like cogs in a machine.
        yuhe00 7y ago
        Tech roles comes in many forms. For example, I have worked a fair bit with graphics programming and VFX, where extensive knowledge of photography would be very useful. I can imagine tech jobs where most of the hobbies you've listed could be considered relevant. Dance? Biometric sensor tech. Guns? Video games. And so on...
    - vharuck 7y ago
      Especially because hobbies and interests are influenced by culture. Even if "Jeff the HR guy" isn't racist, if he likes applicants with similar hobbies, then chances are it's effectively an ethnicity filter. Bad things don't always come from malice.
      - maxaf 7y ago
        Subconscious bias is the most insidious form thereof. This is why I'm a huge fan of stripping resumes of all but the most pertinent hard facts. Technical skills, projects worked on, publications are all relevant. Hobbies, family status, a photograph are all opportunities for subconscious bias to infiltrate the hiring process. Often even education is no longer a useful signal. I've found myself looking away from educational information on resumes for all but the most junior of applicants. A candidate with even a couple of years of experience is lightyears removed from the school that has granted their degree. Likewise, a person with a similar number of years on the job but lacking a degree is similarly removed from their humble beginnings. There's no need to flaunt education.
        HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
        You forget that the resume works both ways, which is what GP was saying. You may want to only look at the facts that say if the candidate can do the job, but the candidate may want to know if, in a larger sense, you're the kind of company they want to work for. In that sense, he's right: that system works for both sides.
    - yosefk 7y ago
      The trouble with technical skill is that you can't measure it with anything like an ELO rating, and it's not easy to prove that knowing a given bit of technical trivia really helps you be productive, or that a given non-technical skill or trait really doesn't help you be productive. If you hire chess players based on individual performance and regardless of group dynamics, then an argument could be made (not entirely trivially in all cases but it could be) that looking at anything except their ELO is illegitimate bias (and in fact some famous players from Lasker to Korchnoi said themselves that it's this objectivity which attracted them to chess). With programming, or most professions involving something meaningful as opposed to a measurable but pointless (and usually measurable because it is pointless) activity aka sport, it's much murkier.
    - iamaelephant 7y ago
      I'm not hiring purely on technical skill. Everyone I hire has to work with everyone else I've hired. There's more to that relationship than technical ability.
      - astura 7y ago
        Sure, attitude, work ethic, communication skills, and professionalism are required as well. Technical skills, attitude, work ethic, communication skills, and professionalism are really all you need to work with your colleagues successfully. Hobbies, pet preference, and exercise preference is irrelevant.
- bboygravity 7y ago
  Do you feel it is useful for you to go to an office at all? If you're not going to bother getting to know your colleagues (to make communication more efficient) than what's the added value of going to an office at all? Am I making wrong assumptions about the use of going to an office?
  - maxaf 7y ago
    I work remotely 95% of the time, so no, there isn't any use in going to an office. But the office-vs-remote axis is a red herring IMHO. Communication happens via a variety of mediums, and remote workers aren't reclusive hermits who never speak to anyone unless it's via JIRA ticket.
ajross 7y ago
Exactly! Hiring is a two-way negotiation, and while I'm sure the grandparent doesn't see it that way, assertive declarations like "I don't want CVs to be unique, I judge people based on merit." are a workplace smell that some people don't want in exactly the same way that photos in a CV are. It makes the boss sound like someone who values conformance and hates diversity. Maybe unfairly, but impressions are everything at this stage of a relationship. To wit: if you really want to hire good people "based on merit", you need to stop being so judgy about the oddballs.
- wallace_f 7y ago
  I don't really follow you. How is hiring based on merit a signal for valuing conformity and intolerance? It sounds like you are the one being judgmental. Personally, I'd prefer to just be valued based on my skills and work product. The alternatives risk being possibly very bad in my experience: possibly valuing politics, nepotism, etc., which obviously gets toxic and unfair very quickly.
  - ajross 7y ago
    "Hiring based on merit" is obviously not. Declaring that you don't like fluffy CV's (which obviously has nothing to do with merit) BECAUSE you "hire based on merit" certainly can be. I'm not saying people need to hire based on who's got a better photo on their resume. I'm saying that you shouldn't be surprised when people take your rhetoric about that stuff as a signal that you aren't going to be as fair a boss as you might think you are. And maybe that's unfair. I've certainly never worked for you. But you need to be willing to market to free spirits if you actually want to hire the best people.
    - wallace_f 7y ago
      I am not the grandparent. However, I really am a free spirit, having an exceptionally non-traditional path than most, and that is actually a good reason to want to work for someone who values skills and results foremost.
vultour 7y ago
Avoiding CVs like these is a culmination of multiple factors, having a line that says "I like fishing, tea, and woodworking" can be completely acceptable. Packing it with obnoxious words like "afficionado" is a red flag to me. I do wonder how putting your interests in the CV makes the company care? Where I work there is plenty of care regardless if you put it on your CV or not.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Woodworking might give you a (tiny) edge if the job is somehow mechanically-oriented, or maybe fishing signals an interest in the outdoors. However, I’ve been told that it’s most useful as hook so that interviewers have something to remember beyond “dev from good school” or “consultant living in NYC”, which might describe a huge fraction of the candidate pool.
  - bboygravity 7y ago
    This makes sense. Another use I've heard mention is that being into team sports could signal that you're trained at communicating and "working" in a team. Not sure I buy that, but yeah that's what they taught us at school about building a resume.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > Packing it with obnoxious words like "afficionado" is a red flag to me. I'm not so sure about that. I like using unusual words because it adds a bit of color. The words should still be natural, though, not like you were trying too hard.

by jakear 7y ago

The people who are writing resumes like this are doing it to avoid working at a place like yours. It’s a resume for people who want their company to care about its employees’ interests.

maxaf 7y ago

I don’t care about my colleagues’ interests. I treat them decently and with respect when we’re working together, but at the close of business we go our separate ways and pursue our interests any way we see fit. Likewise, I don’t expect my coworkers to care about my hobbies. Most of them would be horrified to find out.

jakear 7y ago
Yeah. The person writing that resume doesn’t want to work for you, and you’d not hire them. The system works.
- maxaf 7y ago
  You seem to be defending the perpetuation of bias: hiring based on properties of a person that are orthogonal to technical skill. Bias comes in many shapes and sizes. For example, hiring only white people would be a form of bias. Likewise, hiring only those who share the same interests as the hiring manager is a form of bias. Even looking out for the mere presence of an "interests & hobbies" section on the resume can be considered bias.
  - jakear 7y ago
    If you consider a persons contribution to a company to be purely technical, your argument holds. I take it you might feel that way, I do not.
    - mancerayder 7y ago
      How does a love of dogs and the outdoors (example above) contribute meaningfully to a tech role? How about a love of dance or photography? We go to work to get paid for our skills, not to go camping together or share our love of bird watching. What if a hobby included volunteering at a church, mosque, local GOP or DNC fundraising HQ, re-enacting War simulations or practicing at a gun range? I agree with the posters above who think this is, at best, useless and at worst, a potential for discrimination.
      - 50656E6973 7y ago
        Perhaps it signals the person has a healthy work life balance. >We go to work to get paid for our skills, not to go camping together or share our love of bird watching. Some people prefer to work on teams where they're treated more like humans and less like cogs in a machine.
      - yuhe00 7y ago
        Tech roles comes in many forms. For example, I have worked a fair bit with graphics programming and VFX, where extensive knowledge of photography would be very useful. I can imagine tech jobs where most of the hobbies you've listed could be considered relevant. Dance? Biometric sensor tech. Guns? Video games. And so on...
  - vharuck 7y ago
    Especially because hobbies and interests are influenced by culture. Even if "Jeff the HR guy" isn't racist, if he likes applicants with similar hobbies, then chances are it's effectively an ethnicity filter. Bad things don't always come from malice.
    - maxaf 7y ago
      Subconscious bias is the most insidious form thereof. This is why I'm a huge fan of stripping resumes of all but the most pertinent hard facts. Technical skills, projects worked on, publications are all relevant. Hobbies, family status, a photograph are all opportunities for subconscious bias to infiltrate the hiring process. Often even education is no longer a useful signal. I've found myself looking away from educational information on resumes for all but the most junior of applicants. A candidate with even a couple of years of experience is lightyears removed from the school that has granted their degree. Likewise, a person with a similar number of years on the job but lacking a degree is similarly removed from their humble beginnings. There's no need to flaunt education.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
        You forget that the resume works both ways, which is what GP was saying. You may want to only look at the facts that say if the candidate can do the job, but the candidate may want to know if, in a larger sense, you're the kind of company they want to work for. In that sense, he's right: that system works for both sides.
  - yosefk 7y ago
    The trouble with technical skill is that you can't measure it with anything like an ELO rating, and it's not easy to prove that knowing a given bit of technical trivia really helps you be productive, or that a given non-technical skill or trait really doesn't help you be productive. If you hire chess players based on individual performance and regardless of group dynamics, then an argument could be made (not entirely trivially in all cases but it could be) that looking at anything except their ELO is illegitimate bias (and in fact some famous players from Lasker to Korchnoi said themselves that it's this objectivity which attracted them to chess). With programming, or most professions involving something meaningful as opposed to a measurable but pointless (and usually measurable because it is pointless) activity aka sport, it's much murkier.
  - iamaelephant 7y ago
    I'm not hiring purely on technical skill. Everyone I hire has to work with everyone else I've hired. There's more to that relationship than technical ability.
    - astura 7y ago
      Sure, attitude, work ethic, communication skills, and professionalism are required as well. Technical skills, attitude, work ethic, communication skills, and professionalism are really all you need to work with your colleagues successfully. Hobbies, pet preference, and exercise preference is irrelevant.
bboygravity 7y ago
Do you feel it is useful for you to go to an office at all? If you're not going to bother getting to know your colleagues (to make communication more efficient) than what's the added value of going to an office at all? Am I making wrong assumptions about the use of going to an office?
- maxaf 7y ago
  I work remotely 95% of the time, so no, there isn't any use in going to an office. But the office-vs-remote axis is a red herring IMHO. Communication happens via a variety of mediums, and remote workers aren't reclusive hermits who never speak to anyone unless it's via JIRA ticket.

ajross 7y ago

Exactly! Hiring is a two-way negotiation, and while I'm sure the grandparent doesn't see it that way, assertive declarations like "I don't want CVs to be unique, I judge people based on merit." are a workplace smell that some people don't want in exactly the same way that photos in a CV are. It makes the boss sound like someone who values conformance and hates diversity. Maybe unfairly, but impressions are everything at this stage of a relationship. To wit: if you really want to hire good people "based on merit", you need to stop being so judgy about the oddballs.

wallace_f 7y ago
I don't really follow you. How is hiring based on merit a signal for valuing conformity and intolerance? It sounds like you are the one being judgmental. Personally, I'd prefer to just be valued based on my skills and work product. The alternatives risk being possibly very bad in my experience: possibly valuing politics, nepotism, etc., which obviously gets toxic and unfair very quickly.
- ajross 7y ago
  "Hiring based on merit" is obviously not. Declaring that you don't like fluffy CV's (which obviously has nothing to do with merit) BECAUSE you "hire based on merit" certainly can be. I'm not saying people need to hire based on who's got a better photo on their resume. I'm saying that you shouldn't be surprised when people take your rhetoric about that stuff as a signal that you aren't going to be as fair a boss as you might think you are. And maybe that's unfair. I've certainly never worked for you. But you need to be willing to market to free spirits if you actually want to hire the best people.
  - wallace_f 7y ago
    I am not the grandparent. However, I really am a free spirit, having an exceptionally non-traditional path than most, and that is actually a good reason to want to work for someone who values skills and results foremost.

vultour 7y ago

Avoiding CVs like these is a culmination of multiple factors, having a line that says "I like fishing, tea, and woodworking" can be completely acceptable. Packing it with obnoxious words like "afficionado" is a red flag to me. I do wonder how putting your interests in the CV makes the company care? Where I work there is plenty of care regardless if you put it on your CV or not.

mattkrause 7y ago
Woodworking might give you a (tiny) edge if the job is somehow mechanically-oriented, or maybe fishing signals an interest in the outdoors. However, I’ve been told that it’s most useful as hook so that interviewers have something to remember beyond “dev from good school” or “consultant living in NYC”, which might describe a huge fraction of the candidate pool.
- bboygravity 7y ago
  This makes sense. Another use I've heard mention is that being into team sports could signal that you're trained at communicating and "working" in a team. Not sure I buy that, but yeah that's what they taught us at school about building a resume.
WalterBright 7y ago
> Packing it with obnoxious words like "afficionado" is a red flag to me. I'm not so sure about that. I like using unusual words because it adds a bit of color. The words should still be natural, though, not like you were trying too hard.