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It's this thing where US political dialog has basically become "Well _I_ would like this but what about all these other people the media say won't like this? Wo

by rtpg 7y ago

It's this thing where US political dialog has basically become "Well _I_ would like this but what about all these other people the media say won't like this? Won't someone think of them?" which short circuits to "Oh I don't want this" Lots of people who worry a hell of a lot about the federal deficit when talking about whether they would like to be able to afford going to the doctor. Nevermind that this discussion rarely covers the deficit when it comes time to give tax breaks to "job creators". Also the Democratic party is comically bad at politics in the US. Like "oh but you might lose your private insurance" is a discussion people in the primary are having _when you would be replacing private insurance with free healthcare_. What sort of positioning is even being had here? So many people are stuck in the 90s

Dumblydorr 7y ago
If your tribal leaders support something, you do. Tribe comes before religion, race, or any other consideration, though admittedly many of those are correlated. In the end, for around 90% of Americans, its about R vs D.
cj 7y ago
> Like "oh but you might lose your private insurance" is a discussion people in the primary are having _when you would be replacing private insurance with free healthcare_. What sort of positioning is even being had here? A common fear is that wait times to see a doctor would be much higher with universal healthcare compared to a system with private insurance. Horror stories about people in Canada and the EU waiting months for a procedure that would be available immediately to someone with private insurance if in the US. I don’t mean to start a health care debate in this thread. My main point is that there are reasonable (logical, rational) fears that people have causing them to be against universal healthcare. Understanding those fears and addressing them upfront is one way to get past them.
- moate 7y ago
  "I don't want to wait in line, so make sure poor people can't go to doctors", which is the reason there are lines and wait times, is basically a cartoon villain argument and anyone making it should be treated as such.
  - DHPersonal 7y ago
    The anxiety is not about the wait but rather the potential consequences of the delay, such as the potential death or prolonged suffering of a loved one.
    - moate 7y ago
      Got it. "my sick dying relative > your sick dying relative". Total morally reasonable now, thanks for clearing that up. Why are there going to be lines and waits with expanded healthcare coverage? Because people who need to see doctors will be seeing doctors. If your logic train is "Expanding coverage will create lines, therefor don't expand coverage" and not "Expanding coverage will create lines and therefor we will need to find solutions to new problems when we expand coverage" IDK how you're not just doing some gatekeeping to keep services high for yourself at the expense of others.
      - DHPersonal 7y ago
        >Got it. "my sick dying relative > your sick dying relative". Total morally reasonable now, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, either that or one's own health being potentially at fault and having to wait too long for treatment. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was a morally correct choice; only that I thought it was a perspective not being considered. Better healthcare for all is a good thing and is something many people support, but doing so at cost of a loved one's health makes the decision far more difficult.
        moate 7y ago
        Oh no, it had been considered. I will die on this hill. If you oppose expanding healthcare because you feel that then too many people will have healthcare and that will cause problems for you, you're a terrible person. "What about the smaller number of people who have a great situation" is never a counterpoint to "what about the much greater number of people who have a terrible situation"

by rtpg 7y ago

Dumblydorr 7y ago

If your tribal leaders support something, you do. Tribe comes before religion, race, or any other consideration, though admittedly many of those are correlated. In the end, for around 90% of Americans, its about R vs D.

cj 7y ago

> Like "oh but you might lose your private insurance" is a discussion people in the primary are having _when you would be replacing private insurance with free healthcare_. What sort of positioning is even being had here? A common fear is that wait times to see a doctor would be much higher with universal healthcare compared to a system with private insurance. Horror stories about people in Canada and the EU waiting months for a procedure that would be available immediately to someone with private insurance if in the US. I don’t mean to start a health care debate in this thread. My main point is that there are reasonable (logical, rational) fears that people have causing them to be against universal healthcare. Understanding those fears and addressing them upfront is one way to get past them.

moate 7y ago
"I don't want to wait in line, so make sure poor people can't go to doctors", which is the reason there are lines and wait times, is basically a cartoon villain argument and anyone making it should be treated as such.
- DHPersonal 7y ago
  The anxiety is not about the wait but rather the potential consequences of the delay, such as the potential death or prolonged suffering of a loved one.
  - moate 7y ago
    Got it. "my sick dying relative > your sick dying relative". Total morally reasonable now, thanks for clearing that up. Why are there going to be lines and waits with expanded healthcare coverage? Because people who need to see doctors will be seeing doctors. If your logic train is "Expanding coverage will create lines, therefor don't expand coverage" and not "Expanding coverage will create lines and therefor we will need to find solutions to new problems when we expand coverage" IDK how you're not just doing some gatekeeping to keep services high for yourself at the expense of others.
    - DHPersonal 7y ago
      >Got it. "my sick dying relative > your sick dying relative". Total morally reasonable now, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, either that or one's own health being potentially at fault and having to wait too long for treatment. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was a morally correct choice; only that I thought it was a perspective not being considered. Better healthcare for all is a good thing and is something many people support, but doing so at cost of a loved one's health makes the decision far more difficult.
      - moate 7y ago
        Oh no, it had been considered. I will die on this hill. If you oppose expanding healthcare because you feel that then too many people will have healthcare and that will cause problems for you, you're a terrible person. "What about the smaller number of people who have a great situation" is never a counterpoint to "what about the much greater number of people who have a terrible situation"