4 ms·

This is just how interviewing was done in the 90s I agree with your approach and use it myself but one thing is different now and that’s the proliferation of t

This is just how interviewing was done in the 90s I agree with your approach and use it myself but one thing is different now and that’s the proliferation of tiny skills. Back then you would have a few big skills, you would claim to know one or two main languages, one or two databases and so on. Now people list hundreds - literally hundreds - of skills sometimes. And there’s no way to tell on reading if they really know it, or just saw it once and maybe did a tutorial or “hello world”. People now will add a skill to their CV if they’ve done it for a hour total in their entire lives! Or read a blog post about it. It is a massive time sink to pick through that.

jjav 7y ago
If we're talking about the same kind of thing, I don't consider those to be skills. For example I've seen resumes which list every javascript library they've ever used. Or every UNIX command they know how to run or similar minutia. This tells me the person doesn't know the difference between skills and implementation details, so I don't need to proceed to an interview.
- jishnum 7y ago
  I'd argue that this is a resume overindexed on getting past recruiting filters looking for specific JavaScript libraries or UNIX commands. Even the recruiters action may not be necessarily bad - startups with a decided tech stack might decide they are not able to provide the time for a new hire to ramp up. Effectively you penalise not catering the candidate resume to what you are looking for or deem important.
  - rhizome 7y ago
    Does anybody even know anything about these resume filters? They seem legendary, or I'd think there would be a best practice by now.
    - detaro 7y ago
      Various vendors of software in that space claim they are best practice, e.g. IBM: https://www.ibm.com/talent-management/hr-topic-hub/applicant-tracking-system https://www.ibm.com/talent-management/hr-topic-hub/applicant..., https://appsource.microsoft.com/en-us/product/web-apps/cem_business_solutions.applicant_tracking_system https://appsource.microsoft.com/en-us/product/web-apps/cem_b... promotes keyword matching as a feature, ...
      - rhizome 7y ago
        Oh sure, I know they exist, but on the resume side there's no common knowledge of anything besides keyword stuffing. I'm wondering if that's actuallly the best way given how the filters actually work (which I don't know).
    - james_s_tayler 7y ago
      The trick is there are multiple resume filters. One will filter you out for having too many keywords. One will filter you out for not having enough keywords. One will filter you out for including a picture. One will filter you out for not including a picture. One will ... ad infinitum Your resume is being evaluated by different filters constantly. Different filters filter different things. There is no "right" answer. There are only answers you will or won't be filtered out for depending on which filter is being applied. Which filter is being applied? It's random. Hiring is essentially random.
- kthejoker2 7y ago
  Algorithmic HR has ruined any chance you won't see an SEO centric resume ever again. "I need my resume to show up in your filter, relevance to the actual job functions be damned."
bakuninsbart 7y ago
As a very fresh junior developer, crafting a CV is extremely exhausting, because it is very hard to gauge what you can put in. Take git as an example: I used it for a couple of personal programs, read part of the documentation, had some errors and managed to get rid of them. I know the theory of how to use it on large projects. I even know enough to know that I'm pretty much just scratching the surface, but so are probably most other people. Same with most other skills. At how many lines of code can I call myself proficient in a language? And what if I copied large parts of code from stackoverflow? All in all I think I spend like 8 hours on writing and formating that freaking thing, and it still just feels like some of my skills are a stretch.
- toupeira 7y ago
  I just use a table with experience level columns like e.g. "Proficient", "Advanced", "Hobbyist". But use categories that make sense to _you_ and your skillset.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  You should be able to talk fluently for at least 1 minute about everything you list as a skill. You should have enough material to be able to talk about your CV as a whole for 45 minutes. Not a cast iron rule but this will see you through most interviews. Good luck!
  - bakuninsbart 7y ago
    Thank you, that is an interesting way to look at it, and makes a whole lot of sense! I guess it should be amended by "meaningfully talk about", but I get that from context. To be honest, the process of writing a CV is mostly painful for me because I have to evaluate myself and feel quite inadequate. At the same time, I have multiple companies wanting me despite not being very good, so my actual chances are really good. Software development in Germany is going crazy at the moment.
- Jach 7y ago
  Skills or tools are keyword dumps, use them as such (which in later revisions may include removing them or moving some to be contextualized in job descriptions). My own rule is to only list things I think I could adequately answer a bunch of random questions on; sometimes you might only realize you couldn't when you meet a line of questioning that totally defeats you. I don't put a proficiency level, if it's present then I'm proficient if perhaps also rusty. (Stating proficiency levels has a tendency to bring the knives out, "advanced" or "expert" begs to be challenged, and something like "mastery in C++" -- is your name Bjarne?) > At how many lines of code can I call myself proficient in a language? If you want a target to shoot for, I'll give you one, but don't really follow it... LoC is kind of meaningless on its own in part because it's contextual on many things (you highlighted one context, lines copied, I'll use a different context). 1k lines if paid for them, 6k-10k if not. This doesn't include lines added and then deleted (i.e. if your only project in FooLang weighs 300 lines, it's 300 lines, even if making the project involved adding 100 lines, deleting 50, adding 500 lines, deleting 100, editing 300, deleting ...) you need projects whose sum mass is 1k. Probably better to have at least one 1k+ project too, especially if it's unpaid. But again, don't follow this, it's just a somewhat random target to answer the question. Better to think about what this could be a proxy for, and target that instead.

jjav 7y ago

If we're talking about the same kind of thing, I don't consider those to be skills. For example I've seen resumes which list every javascript library they've ever used. Or every UNIX command they know how to run or similar minutia. This tells me the person doesn't know the difference between skills and implementation details, so I don't need to proceed to an interview.

jishnum 7y ago
I'd argue that this is a resume overindexed on getting past recruiting filters looking for specific JavaScript libraries or UNIX commands. Even the recruiters action may not be necessarily bad - startups with a decided tech stack might decide they are not able to provide the time for a new hire to ramp up. Effectively you penalise not catering the candidate resume to what you are looking for or deem important.
- rhizome 7y ago
  Does anybody even know anything about these resume filters? They seem legendary, or I'd think there would be a best practice by now.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Various vendors of software in that space claim they are best practice, e.g. IBM: https://www.ibm.com/talent-management/hr-topic-hub/applicant-tracking-system https://www.ibm.com/talent-management/hr-topic-hub/applicant..., https://appsource.microsoft.com/en-us/product/web-apps/cem_business_solutions.applicant_tracking_system https://appsource.microsoft.com/en-us/product/web-apps/cem_b... promotes keyword matching as a feature, ...
    - rhizome 7y ago
      Oh sure, I know they exist, but on the resume side there's no common knowledge of anything besides keyword stuffing. I'm wondering if that's actuallly the best way given how the filters actually work (which I don't know).
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    The trick is there are multiple resume filters. One will filter you out for having too many keywords. One will filter you out for not having enough keywords. One will filter you out for including a picture. One will filter you out for not including a picture. One will ... ad infinitum Your resume is being evaluated by different filters constantly. Different filters filter different things. There is no "right" answer. There are only answers you will or won't be filtered out for depending on which filter is being applied. Which filter is being applied? It's random. Hiring is essentially random.
kthejoker2 7y ago
Algorithmic HR has ruined any chance you won't see an SEO centric resume ever again. "I need my resume to show up in your filter, relevance to the actual job functions be damned."

bakuninsbart 7y ago

As a very fresh junior developer, crafting a CV is extremely exhausting, because it is very hard to gauge what you can put in. Take git as an example: I used it for a couple of personal programs, read part of the documentation, had some errors and managed to get rid of them. I know the theory of how to use it on large projects. I even know enough to know that I'm pretty much just scratching the surface, but so are probably most other people. Same with most other skills. At how many lines of code can I call myself proficient in a language? And what if I copied large parts of code from stackoverflow? All in all I think I spend like 8 hours on writing and formating that freaking thing, and it still just feels like some of my skills are a stretch.

toupeira 7y ago
I just use a table with experience level columns like e.g. "Proficient", "Advanced", "Hobbyist". But use categories that make sense to _you_ and your skillset.
goatinaboat 7y ago
You should be able to talk fluently for at least 1 minute about everything you list as a skill. You should have enough material to be able to talk about your CV as a whole for 45 minutes. Not a cast iron rule but this will see you through most interviews. Good luck!
- bakuninsbart 7y ago
  Thank you, that is an interesting way to look at it, and makes a whole lot of sense! I guess it should be amended by "meaningfully talk about", but I get that from context. To be honest, the process of writing a CV is mostly painful for me because I have to evaluate myself and feel quite inadequate. At the same time, I have multiple companies wanting me despite not being very good, so my actual chances are really good. Software development in Germany is going crazy at the moment.
Jach 7y ago
Skills or tools are keyword dumps, use them as such (which in later revisions may include removing them or moving some to be contextualized in job descriptions). My own rule is to only list things I think I could adequately answer a bunch of random questions on; sometimes you might only realize you couldn't when you meet a line of questioning that totally defeats you. I don't put a proficiency level, if it's present then I'm proficient if perhaps also rusty. (Stating proficiency levels has a tendency to bring the knives out, "advanced" or "expert" begs to be challenged, and something like "mastery in C++" -- is your name Bjarne?) > At how many lines of code can I call myself proficient in a language? If you want a target to shoot for, I'll give you one, but don't really follow it... LoC is kind of meaningless on its own in part because it's contextual on many things (you highlighted one context, lines copied, I'll use a different context). 1k lines if paid for them, 6k-10k if not. This doesn't include lines added and then deleted (i.e. if your only project in FooLang weighs 300 lines, it's 300 lines, even if making the project involved adding 100 lines, deleting 50, adding 500 lines, deleting 100, editing 300, deleting ...) you need projects whose sum mass is 1k. Probably better to have at least one 1k+ project too, especially if it's unpaid. But again, don't follow this, it's just a somewhat random target to answer the question. Better to think about what this could be a proxy for, and target that instead.