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The trouble with this viewpoint is that there are an endless number of things we could be trying, and it's more or less a zero sum game. The idea was terrible

The trouble with this viewpoint is that there are an endless number of things we could be trying, and it's more or less a zero sum game. The idea was terrible on paper, easily falsified by back of the napkin math. The same amount of money could have been spent on, eg, testing the commercial viability of smoothing out grid loads by making ice off peak for cooling.

craz8 7y ago
It’s never a zero sum game - we can try many things at once, some will work well, some will work poorly, some won’t work at all Trying things helps us move forward
- __sy__ 7y ago
  And some aren't even worth trying in the first place. Like this idea. edit: I'm all for trying crazy moonshots. Just not down right idiotic ones that are pushed by pseudo-science and clickbait activism [1]. [1]https://www.vox.com/2014/5/14/5717036/should-we-cover-all-our-roads-with-solar-panels https://www.vox.com/2014/5/14/5717036/should-we-cover-all-ou...
  - ksec 7y ago
    Excuse my ignorance, isn't this a technical challenge, rather than the idea in itself was stupid? Isn't that saying shooting sky full of satellite for communication is stupid until SpaceX made loading anything to space 10x less expensive? I would say the idea isn't worth trying because it clearly wasn't ready, ( I mean if napkin maths already show it is off by a factor of 10 than it really is stupid trying it ) but I don't think the idea in itself is stupid at all.
    - BubRoss 7y ago
      What is the point of a solar road?
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      The thing about solar roads is they're covered by cars, and they don't work when covered, for obvious reasons. Then all the road dirt, grime, tire dust, oil, etc, builds up on top of them blocking the light for good. The road is about the worst thing you can possibly try and generate solar electricity from.
      - ksec 7y ago
        Thx. Valid Point.
- quanto 7y ago
  I understood the parent post's view as a zero-sum game among different proposals. There is a set, limited budget, and myriad ideas to choose from and test. Funding one idea means not being able to fund another. Thus, zero-sum. Therefore, we should fund most probable test ideas as should any scientific endeavor. The parent post claims that this particular idea was not probable to begin with (a poor idea on paper).
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  It shouldn't be zero sum. We should try every feasible idea we can, and humanity has a blind spot for funding projects that aren't sexy and don't have the chance of outsized commercial returns, like cheap lenses for third world countries. Or insulation. But that's the ideal. In the real world, political and consumer attention for projects like this most certainly is zero sum. They quickly get fatiguing and you already feel like you've done your bit. In fact, it's probably even worse than zero sum in practice, because after being burned on junk like solar roads, you're far less likely to vouch or open your wallet for the next cool sounding tech that comes along.
voxl 7y ago
Lets see the easily falsified napkin math then
- emj 7y ago
  EVblog has some great videos about how bad solar roadways are, starting in 2014, and a good recap video in 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38
  - wereHamster 7y ago
    And also an update this year just after the failure of the experiment was announced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM50P4K9UVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM50P4K9UVk
  - dx7tnt 7y ago
    Yeah EEVBlog Dave is really not keen on solar roadways... It does seem like an over-engineered solution to a problem that isn't really there.
dependsontheq 7y ago
There are different reasons to try things, this is worth trying because we have so many roads and using even a part of them for energy production would have an enormous impact.
Zarel 7y ago
The question, when you see something seemingly very dumb, is always "what am I missing?" It seems unlikely that well-funded scientists are _that_ stupid. It's more likely either that we're missing some reason why solar roads are more efficient at first glance, or that they have some ulterior political motive where wasting the money is intentional. Either way, laughing at them for missing things every internet commenter immediately thinks of seems like a mistake. That said, in this case, my first thought is, "we definitely haven't run out of better places to put solar panels". The specifics don't matter much when the US has plenty of unused space to put solar farms (even just "next to the roads"). I'm pretty confused by how far the idea's gotten.
- maxdamantus 7y ago
  In a world where funding is largely about your ability to market your product, I don't see why it's that unlikely. It's not even that they're particularly stupid, just that the market isn't magically immune to things like the sunk cost fallacy. If people are still paying you for an idea that you might be somewhat sceptical about, are you going to stop doing it anyway? Maybe you will, but I imagine there are plenty of people where the money will just confirm their biases towards their work.

craz8 7y ago

It’s never a zero sum game - we can try many things at once, some will work well, some will work poorly, some won’t work at all Trying things helps us move forward

__sy__ 7y ago
And some aren't even worth trying in the first place. Like this idea. edit: I'm all for trying crazy moonshots. Just not down right idiotic ones that are pushed by pseudo-science and clickbait activism [1]. [1]https://www.vox.com/2014/5/14/5717036/should-we-cover-all-our-roads-with-solar-panels https://www.vox.com/2014/5/14/5717036/should-we-cover-all-ou...
- ksec 7y ago
  Excuse my ignorance, isn't this a technical challenge, rather than the idea in itself was stupid? Isn't that saying shooting sky full of satellite for communication is stupid until SpaceX made loading anything to space 10x less expensive? I would say the idea isn't worth trying because it clearly wasn't ready, ( I mean if napkin maths already show it is off by a factor of 10 than it really is stupid trying it ) but I don't think the idea in itself is stupid at all.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    What is the point of a solar road?
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The thing about solar roads is they're covered by cars, and they don't work when covered, for obvious reasons. Then all the road dirt, grime, tire dust, oil, etc, builds up on top of them blocking the light for good. The road is about the worst thing you can possibly try and generate solar electricity from.
    - ksec 7y ago
      Thx. Valid Point.
quanto 7y ago
I understood the parent post's view as a zero-sum game among different proposals. There is a set, limited budget, and myriad ideas to choose from and test. Funding one idea means not being able to fund another. Thus, zero-sum. Therefore, we should fund most probable test ideas as should any scientific endeavor. The parent post claims that this particular idea was not probable to begin with (a poor idea on paper).
reitzensteinm 7y ago
It shouldn't be zero sum. We should try every feasible idea we can, and humanity has a blind spot for funding projects that aren't sexy and don't have the chance of outsized commercial returns, like cheap lenses for third world countries. Or insulation. But that's the ideal. In the real world, political and consumer attention for projects like this most certainly is zero sum. They quickly get fatiguing and you already feel like you've done your bit. In fact, it's probably even worse than zero sum in practice, because after being burned on junk like solar roads, you're far less likely to vouch or open your wallet for the next cool sounding tech that comes along.

voxl 7y ago

Lets see the easily falsified napkin math then

emj 7y ago
EVblog has some great videos about how bad solar roadways are, starting in 2014, and a good recap video in 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38
- wereHamster 7y ago
  And also an update this year just after the failure of the experiment was announced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM50P4K9UVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM50P4K9UVk
- dx7tnt 7y ago
  Yeah EEVBlog Dave is really not keen on solar roadways... It does seem like an over-engineered solution to a problem that isn't really there.

dependsontheq 7y ago

There are different reasons to try things, this is worth trying because we have so many roads and using even a part of them for energy production would have an enormous impact.

Zarel 7y ago

The question, when you see something seemingly very dumb, is always "what am I missing?" It seems unlikely that well-funded scientists are _that_ stupid. It's more likely either that we're missing some reason why solar roads are more efficient at first glance, or that they have some ulterior political motive where wasting the money is intentional. Either way, laughing at them for missing things every internet commenter immediately thinks of seems like a mistake. That said, in this case, my first thought is, "we definitely haven't run out of better places to put solar panels". The specifics don't matter much when the US has plenty of unused space to put solar farms (even just "next to the roads"). I'm pretty confused by how far the idea's gotten.

maxdamantus 7y ago
In a world where funding is largely about your ability to market your product, I don't see why it's that unlikely. It's not even that they're particularly stupid, just that the market isn't magically immune to things like the sunk cost fallacy. If people are still paying you for an idea that you might be somewhat sceptical about, are you going to stop doing it anyway? Maybe you will, but I imagine there are plenty of people where the money will just confirm their biases towards their work.