4 ms·

We've all become too PC and the stains of that culture are bursting out the sides in unexpected and colorful ways. It's oppressive to be PC and we haven't ackno

by tfha 7y ago

We've all become too PC and the stains of that culture are bursting out the sides in unexpected and colorful ways. It's oppressive to be PC and we haven't acknowledged that side of it well enough. (Oppressive to the person constantly censoring themselves in the name of PC)

arcticbull 7y ago
FYI, the term non-PC is mental gymnastics for “being a dick” so I suppose you’re arguing we should be bigger dicks to each other. IMO, you should be yourself, unless you’re a dick in which case, don’t be yourself. It may feel oppressive to you, but frankly, I don’t ... care, and neither does the rest of society which is why your approach doesn’t get you far. Hopefully this framing is illustrative.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  An ironic statement given that "dick" is not PC language. It's a gendered slur insulting men on an overwhelmingly male forum. I think it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that, though I don't really think this is the time or place for me personally to try to get into it in a substantive way.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Yeah, haha, my reply was a bit meta ^_^ basically making the affirmative case for PC in a non-PC way. I agree with you that there's nuances (and that this isn't the place) -- and of course simultaneously I'd love to see peoples' skins thicken up. My reply is more to the FOX News trademarked rallying cry against political correctness more than against the dictionary definition. With that in mind, I'd expect someone arguing against PC to appreciate the tone of my reply as that is the kind of discourse they're advocating for.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      To me, PC culture is more about style than substance, a thing I very contemptuously called "empty polite noises" when I was younger. I generally shoot for genuine respect of people. I far prefer the company of authentic but socially awkward people to superficially smooth con artist types. If one can combine authentic respect with smooth language, they are basically hitting international diplomat levels of social interaction. Awesome if one can pull that off, but quite oppressive to expect it as a default for being able to interact with others at all. Which is why PC culture is very often toxic: In a world where asking for both is very often asking too much, it usually prioritizes style over substance. You will note that HN doesn't require PC language. The mods will not come down on you for casually swearing. They will come down on you for ad hominems. It's a good standard, imo.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- tfha 7y ago
  Absolutely not. Political correctness is a term for completely suffocating certain lines of thought such as stereotyping and certain methods for expressing outrage. PC culture is highly alienating to many Americans and is one of the reasons that Trump was so successful in 2016.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    Would it be wrong to suggest that bigots and racists deserve to be alienated?
    - NibsNiven 7y ago
      Would it be wrong to imply that if you're non-PC you're a racist and/or bigot?
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        I don’t think that’s what they were saying. I think they were saying that people with distasteful positions need not receive the same platform as those who dont. The fact is that while everyone is entitled to speak freely Nobody is entitled to a platform. You have to earn your platform. You earn it through the way in which you present your ideas, which is particularly true for challenging ideas.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
(Oppressive to the person constantly censoring themselves in the name of PC) I mostly don't suffer from this issue. It's a genuine concern that if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts and you may not be able to feel your own feelings. I spent a lot of time in therapy. I feel fairly comfortable with myself. It's a topic I should perhaps explore more sometime, but I have had a really rough month, I'm still exhausted and I've got a looming deadline, so now is not the time for that.
- knolax 7y ago
  > if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts Are you saying that you're incapable of non-narrative thoughts?
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    No. I'm saying that an oppressive enough culture, where you cannot express yourself, interferes with your relationship to yourself and with developing better mental models.
    - knolax 7y ago
      I don't see why self discovery has to involve external expression. Isn't the whole point to delve inwards?
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        Without a mirror or other external device, no one can see their own face. It's a bit like that.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  > if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts That's the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and it's not been a serious linguistic theory for nearly about a century now. It's not a concern. You might have been thinking about the weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which is about the much more reasonable idea that linguistic structure merely influences thoughts and decisions. Except that it's such an obvious no-brainer, it's hardly worth mentioning. Also it makes it quite a leap to go from there to being unable to feel your own feelings (again, instead of influencing ones feelings). (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) On the other hand, speaking about being genuine: I personally believe that being PC is about being sensitive and aware of other people's feelings, to genuinely spend the effort to understand why or why not something would be offensive to people. And with understanding, you'll find that your language changes (just like it changes when you become friends with someone). That is really taking the substance over just the style. And personally, I have found that cultivating this awareness in myself has allowed me to actually think MORE thoughts, and feel MORE feelings. Claiming it does the opposite is not helping. This is a matter of feeling comfortable with the other person's feelings, not about yourself.

by tfha 7y ago

arcticbull 7y ago

FYI, the term non-PC is mental gymnastics for “being a dick” so I suppose you’re arguing we should be bigger dicks to each other. IMO, you should be yourself, unless you’re a dick in which case, don’t be yourself. It may feel oppressive to you, but frankly, I don’t ... care, and neither does the rest of society which is why your approach doesn’t get you far. Hopefully this framing is illustrative.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
An ironic statement given that "dick" is not PC language. It's a gendered slur insulting men on an overwhelmingly male forum. I think it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that, though I don't really think this is the time or place for me personally to try to get into it in a substantive way.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Yeah, haha, my reply was a bit meta ^_^ basically making the affirmative case for PC in a non-PC way. I agree with you that there's nuances (and that this isn't the place) -- and of course simultaneously I'd love to see peoples' skins thicken up. My reply is more to the FOX News trademarked rallying cry against political correctness more than against the dictionary definition. With that in mind, I'd expect someone arguing against PC to appreciate the tone of my reply as that is the kind of discourse they're advocating for.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    To me, PC culture is more about style than substance, a thing I very contemptuously called "empty polite noises" when I was younger. I generally shoot for genuine respect of people. I far prefer the company of authentic but socially awkward people to superficially smooth con artist types. If one can combine authentic respect with smooth language, they are basically hitting international diplomat levels of social interaction. Awesome if one can pull that off, but quite oppressive to expect it as a default for being able to interact with others at all. Which is why PC culture is very often toxic: In a world where asking for both is very often asking too much, it usually prioritizes style over substance. You will note that HN doesn't require PC language. The mods will not come down on you for casually swearing. They will come down on you for ad hominems. It's a good standard, imo.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
tfha 7y ago
Absolutely not. Political correctness is a term for completely suffocating certain lines of thought such as stereotyping and certain methods for expressing outrage. PC culture is highly alienating to many Americans and is one of the reasons that Trump was so successful in 2016.
- TylerE 7y ago
  Would it be wrong to suggest that bigots and racists deserve to be alienated?
  - NibsNiven 7y ago
    Would it be wrong to imply that if you're non-PC you're a racist and/or bigot?
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      I don’t think that’s what they were saying. I think they were saying that people with distasteful positions need not receive the same platform as those who dont. The fact is that while everyone is entitled to speak freely Nobody is entitled to a platform. You have to earn your platform. You earn it through the way in which you present your ideas, which is particularly true for challenging ideas.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

(Oppressive to the person constantly censoring themselves in the name of PC) I mostly don't suffer from this issue. It's a genuine concern that if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts and you may not be able to feel your own feelings. I spent a lot of time in therapy. I feel fairly comfortable with myself. It's a topic I should perhaps explore more sometime, but I have had a really rough month, I'm still exhausted and I've got a looming deadline, so now is not the time for that.

knolax 7y ago
> if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts Are you saying that you're incapable of non-narrative thoughts?
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  No. I'm saying that an oppressive enough culture, where you cannot express yourself, interferes with your relationship to yourself and with developing better mental models.
  - knolax 7y ago
    I don't see why self discovery has to involve external expression. Isn't the whole point to delve inwards?
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Without a mirror or other external device, no one can see their own face. It's a bit like that.
tripzilch 7y ago
> if you can't speak certain words, then you can't think certain thoughts That's the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and it's not been a serious linguistic theory for nearly about a century now. It's not a concern. You might have been thinking about the weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which is about the much more reasonable idea that linguistic structure merely influences thoughts and decisions. Except that it's such an obvious no-brainer, it's hardly worth mentioning. Also it makes it quite a leap to go from there to being unable to feel your own feelings (again, instead of influencing ones feelings). (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) On the other hand, speaking about being genuine: I personally believe that being PC is about being sensitive and aware of other people's feelings, to genuinely spend the effort to understand why or why not something would be offensive to people. And with understanding, you'll find that your language changes (just like it changes when you become friends with someone). That is really taking the substance over just the style. And personally, I have found that cultivating this awareness in myself has allowed me to actually think MORE thoughts, and feel MORE feelings. Claiming it does the opposite is not helping. This is a matter of feeling comfortable with the other person's feelings, not about yourself.