11 ms·

Flying with Miniature Horses

tedunangst 7y ago
Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat?
- tptacek 7y ago
  No, it spends several paragraphs on this question.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat? It didn't dodge the question at all. There's a photo, and the article talks about the photo extensively. "Airlines that have engaged with miniature horses before typically put Ms. Ramouni and Cali in the bulkhead row, which has more legroom and no seats in front. Throughout the flight Cali stands at Ms. Ramouni’s feet."
  - tedunangst 7y ago
    But if that's not available? (Typically? What happens atypically?) The paragraphs after that question seemed to be mostly about making sure the horse didn't pee on anybody, not how it physically fit. Also, it looked like the horse is longer than a single seat wide. Does she always travel with a companion? Unfortunately the times seems to have decided I'm only allowed to read this article once and now it won't load.
IIAOPSW 7y ago
Fun fact: there is exactly one situation in the United States in which you are required to fly with non-TSA approved locks on your luggage. That situation is when there's a gun in your checked in bags. The easiest way to meet that requirement is with a flare gun. Some perfectly reasonable people that are concerned about theft and privacy will travel with a flare gun for no reason other than it lets them lock their luggage. The rules around flying are weird and full of perverse incentives that are easily hacked.
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  A flare gun, a burly lock, and a pelican case is a well known trio for travel for people like national geographic photographers. $40k worth of camera optics is worth it.
- neilv 7y ago
  Flying with a declared flare gun in your checked baggage photography gear cases was a trick I heard some professional photographers use. Reportedly, that activates some chain of custody-like procedures, including that it's unlikely to be lost, and that the case isn't opened at potentially arbitrary points of time by unknown workers in between (damage, theft).
  - krapht 7y ago
    The very first Google hit on this says it is a poor idea. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190 https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190
    - thomasmeeks 7y ago
      There's a reply to that comment that casts doubt on its accuracy. I'm not sure which is correct but felt worth pointing out.
    - hkchad 7y ago
      Pretty much everything in that article is the opposite of my numerous experiences. You goto ticket counter just like normal and declare the firearm, they look at it, stick a card in the outer bag and verify you have the only key. You also can travel with ammo as long as it's in 'original package'. Then after that it depends on the airport, some you just walk it over to tsa just like an oversized bag. All in all it takes about 10min extra. Very easy, never been hassled at all. Each airline has their own rules which are clearly spelled out on their websites. I've never tried sticking a bunch of camera gear in the pelican but it wouldn't be difficult, they just look in the box, at no time do they touch it so you can have whatever under it. Xray might pickup on it and they ask you to open, which is why you walk it over to them.
dboreham 7y ago
Did the NYT acquire The Onion?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Eyes 7y ago
As someone over 6ft, all I would like to know is what airline has enough legroom for a horse to go in front of you.
bradleyjg 7y ago
There's a thing we do as a society which I think is unfortunate. We decide the someone ought to get help, that part is totally reasonable. But then instead of providing that help out of our collective resources we instead pass a law requiring random third parties to provide it. So in this case we decide that disabled people ought to be able to take their assistance animals on planes. Fine. But then we the people should be paying the airlines to carry the disabled person and their service animal without depriving other passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for. We've collectively decided to help and we should collectively bear the cost.
- cortic 7y ago
  Or just pass another law forbidding the 'depriving [any] passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for'. I see no compelling reason for taxes to subsidize companies just to help them follow the law, i get no subsidies to help me not steal things or to obey traffic lights. And I'm not posting millions in profits.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    There is a huge difference between laws that require you not to do something, and ones that require you to spend limited resources providing affirmative benefits to people.
    - matthewmacleod 7y ago
      No there isn’t. You can logically construct one set from the other. If you are unable to run a business that provides equal access to the level required by regulation, then your business is unsustainable and cannot function. This is the same situation as running a business that cannot afford to provide a service while meeting environmental regulations.
  - PaulAJ 7y ago
    From the politician's point of view there is a very important difference. If you raise taxes and then use that money to pay for something then you are responsible for a tax increase. Opposition politicians can point to your tax increase and complain that this is costing the average taxpayer $N per year. However if you make a regulation which does the same thing then the cost does not cross the government's books, so nobody can say that you are costing anybody anything in particular. Its much better politics, regardless of the economics.
whalesalad 7y ago
Flying with 2 dogs in the same row in a few weeks for the first time and I know I am going to get some stern looks from others on the plane. They have their ESA documentation and everything is set to go, we're in first class at the bulkhead (yay points), and they are extremely well behaved. I cannot even fathom trying to get a horse onto a plane since I am already playing mental gymnastics with my two dogs.
- watertom 7y ago
  How do you honestly function day to day if you need to have two dogs with you at all times? Do you work from home? How can you drive without being an emotional wreck? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I see your post and it causes my brain to short circuit. I don't want you confined to your house, but if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
  - Camillo 7y ago
    What are you talking about? Surely you've seen people who keep dogs as pets. They lead entirely normal lives, for the most part. And you must have also seen people who have not just one dog, but two or more, and they still have a normal life. If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      > If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs? Except emotional support animals are more than just your average pet.
      - Camillo 7y ago
        Every pet is more than just your average pet. They're good dogs, Brent.
uberman 7y ago
Unless I missed something, the "completely reasonable reason" appears to be that horses live a lot longer than dogs.
- tptacek 7y ago
  They're apparently calmer, require less social contact, and cause fewer allergy problems, in addition to the lifespan benefit, which is considerable. And, as the article mentions, if you need mobility/stability assistance, a horse can be more helpful than a dog. Really, once you learn that there people who could reasonably prefer mini-horses to dogs, the article has answered the question it sets out to.
  - cujo 7y ago
    > cause fewer allergy problems I have a very hard time believing that. Do you have a source? It's all anecdotal, but the few people I know with dog allergies, seem to be very mild cases. While horse allergies seem to be fairly common and much more severe.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      Allergies require exposure to the allergen, and since far more people have significant dog exposure than have significant horse exposure, dog allergies are much more common. That's why there is very little online about horse allergies; there is also very little online about panda bear allergies.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
This may sound dickish, but as someone who always has to pay extra for more legroom because the length of my thighs is longer than the standard seat pitch, when is being tall going to be declared a disability?
- liability 7y ago
  I'm pretty average height so I can't personally relate to this experience, but it does logically seem like you have a point. After all, it's not your fault you're so lanky; you were born that way (well.. you know what I mean.) Isn't that equally deserving of accommodation? I wish whoever downvoted you could explain themselves to help me understand why they think tall people shouldn't be reasonably accommodated.
  - bradleyjg 7y ago
    (1) Disability The term "disability" means, with respect to an individual (A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual; ... (2) Major Life Activities (A) In general For purposes of paragraph (1), major life activities include, but are not limited to, caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping, walking, standing, lifting, bending, speaking, breathing, learning, reading, concentrating, thinking, communicating, and working.
    - liability 7y ago
      Okay, but why are tall people not also deserving of accommodation? That's the part I'm curious about.
      - jessaustin 7y ago
        You can probably accommodate yourself by folding your legs up a bit. Sure that's uncomfortable, but economy-class commercial flight is uncomfortable. No one wonders why airlines charge very wide passengers for two seats. If your legs are so long that you can't fit in your seat, buy another seat or buy a first-class seat.
coldcode 7y ago
I cannot even sit in a normal plane due to my height, and yet people fly with a horse???? I really want to find some way to fly with a Pygmy Hippo. Or how about a friendly Caiman?
- TylerE 7y ago
  RTFA These are no bigger than a medium size dog.
  - mkl 7y ago
    These look a lot bigger than a medium sized dog. Their bodies seem way bulkier. I'm only slightly taller than average, but couldn't fit a chihuahua in front of my knees in a plane, let alone a medium sized dog or miniature horse.
cscurmudgeon 7y ago
Nice to see NYT engaging in clickbait headlines.
kqr2 7y ago
More info on guide horses, including advantages: http://guide-horse.org/ http://guide-horse.org/
jessaustin 7y ago
Airport officials will sometimes ask for Cali’s official “horse ID,” Ms. Ramouni said. Unaware of any organization that offers such a thing, she and a friend eventually made a card themselves. OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards. Cali is used to going for long stretches without urinating... This is typical of horses, especially females like this one featured in TFA. They like to really stretch out their legs while urinating (I guess they don't like splashes?) and are only comfortable doing so in particular situations. Whereas they will defecate anywhere, so it's impressive that this animal has been trained not to do that.
- scotty79 7y ago
  > OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards. If you are asking for ID even though you don't know what ID should be provided or even if any is required then FU, you get the one written in crayons.
  - ebg13 7y ago
    Someone I know relayed a story to me once wherein, at the passport gate into England she, a Canadian citizen, was held up by the passport control agent for not having a visa document. "Where's your visa?" "I don't need a visa, I'm a Canadian citizen. Your queen is my queen." "So you don't have one?" "Yes, because I don't need one."
u801e 7y ago
How do airlines accommodate passengers who have allergies to these animals? Do they let them know before the board that there will be an animal they're allergic to on board? Do they have to wait for the next flight, or does the passenger with the animal have to wait?

Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat?

tptacek 7y ago
No, it spends several paragraphs on this question.
reaperducer 7y ago
Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat? It didn't dodge the question at all. There's a photo, and the article talks about the photo extensively. "Airlines that have engaged with miniature horses before typically put Ms. Ramouni and Cali in the bulkhead row, which has more legroom and no seats in front. Throughout the flight Cali stands at Ms. Ramouni’s feet."
- tedunangst 7y ago
  But if that's not available? (Typically? What happens atypically?) The paragraphs after that question seemed to be mostly about making sure the horse didn't pee on anybody, not how it physically fit. Also, it looked like the horse is longer than a single seat wide. Does she always travel with a companion? Unfortunately the times seems to have decided I'm only allowed to read this article once and now it won't load.

Fun fact: there is exactly one situation in the United States in which you are required to fly with non-TSA approved locks on your luggage. That situation is when there's a gun in your checked in bags. The easiest way to meet that requirement is with a flare gun. Some perfectly reasonable people that are concerned about theft and privacy will travel with a flare gun for no reason other than it lets them lock their luggage. The rules around flying are weird and full of perverse incentives that are easily hacked.

hprotagonist 7y ago
A flare gun, a burly lock, and a pelican case is a well known trio for travel for people like national geographic photographers. $40k worth of camera optics is worth it.
neilv 7y ago
Flying with a declared flare gun in your checked baggage photography gear cases was a trick I heard some professional photographers use. Reportedly, that activates some chain of custody-like procedures, including that it's unlikely to be lost, and that the case isn't opened at potentially arbitrary points of time by unknown workers in between (damage, theft).
- krapht 7y ago
  The very first Google hit on this says it is a poor idea. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190 https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    There's a reply to that comment that casts doubt on its accuracy. I'm not sure which is correct but felt worth pointing out.
  - hkchad 7y ago
    Pretty much everything in that article is the opposite of my numerous experiences. You goto ticket counter just like normal and declare the firearm, they look at it, stick a card in the outer bag and verify you have the only key. You also can travel with ammo as long as it's in 'original package'. Then after that it depends on the airport, some you just walk it over to tsa just like an oversized bag. All in all it takes about 10min extra. Very easy, never been hassled at all. Each airline has their own rules which are clearly spelled out on their websites. I've never tried sticking a bunch of camera gear in the pelican but it wouldn't be difficult, they just look in the box, at no time do they touch it so you can have whatever under it. Xray might pickup on it and they ask you to open, which is why you walk it over to them.

dboreham 7y ago

Did the NYT acquire The Onion?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Eyes 7y ago

As someone over 6ft, all I would like to know is what airline has enough legroom for a horse to go in front of you.

bradleyjg 7y ago

There's a thing we do as a society which I think is unfortunate. We decide the someone ought to get help, that part is totally reasonable. But then instead of providing that help out of our collective resources we instead pass a law requiring random third parties to provide it. So in this case we decide that disabled people ought to be able to take their assistance animals on planes. Fine. But then we the people should be paying the airlines to carry the disabled person and their service animal without depriving other passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for. We've collectively decided to help and we should collectively bear the cost.

cortic 7y ago
Or just pass another law forbidding the 'depriving [any] passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for'. I see no compelling reason for taxes to subsidize companies just to help them follow the law, i get no subsidies to help me not steal things or to obey traffic lights. And I'm not posting millions in profits.
- rayiner 7y ago
  There is a huge difference between laws that require you not to do something, and ones that require you to spend limited resources providing affirmative benefits to people.
  - matthewmacleod 7y ago
    No there isn’t. You can logically construct one set from the other. If you are unable to run a business that provides equal access to the level required by regulation, then your business is unsustainable and cannot function. This is the same situation as running a business that cannot afford to provide a service while meeting environmental regulations.
- PaulAJ 7y ago
  From the politician's point of view there is a very important difference. If you raise taxes and then use that money to pay for something then you are responsible for a tax increase. Opposition politicians can point to your tax increase and complain that this is costing the average taxpayer $N per year. However if you make a regulation which does the same thing then the cost does not cross the government's books, so nobody can say that you are costing anybody anything in particular. Its much better politics, regardless of the economics.

whalesalad 7y ago

Flying with 2 dogs in the same row in a few weeks for the first time and I know I am going to get some stern looks from others on the plane. They have their ESA documentation and everything is set to go, we're in first class at the bulkhead (yay points), and they are extremely well behaved. I cannot even fathom trying to get a horse onto a plane since I am already playing mental gymnastics with my two dogs.

watertom 7y ago
How do you honestly function day to day if you need to have two dogs with you at all times? Do you work from home? How can you drive without being an emotional wreck? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I see your post and it causes my brain to short circuit. I don't want you confined to your house, but if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
- Camillo 7y ago
  What are you talking about? Surely you've seen people who keep dogs as pets. They lead entirely normal lives, for the most part. And you must have also seen people who have not just one dog, but two or more, and they still have a normal life. If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs? Except emotional support animals are more than just your average pet.
    - Camillo 7y ago
      Every pet is more than just your average pet. They're good dogs, Brent.

uberman 7y ago

Unless I missed something, the "completely reasonable reason" appears to be that horses live a lot longer than dogs.

tptacek 7y ago
They're apparently calmer, require less social contact, and cause fewer allergy problems, in addition to the lifespan benefit, which is considerable. And, as the article mentions, if you need mobility/stability assistance, a horse can be more helpful than a dog. Really, once you learn that there people who could reasonably prefer mini-horses to dogs, the article has answered the question it sets out to.
- cujo 7y ago
  > cause fewer allergy problems I have a very hard time believing that. Do you have a source? It's all anecdotal, but the few people I know with dog allergies, seem to be very mild cases. While horse allergies seem to be fairly common and much more severe.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    Allergies require exposure to the allergen, and since far more people have significant dog exposure than have significant horse exposure, dog allergies are much more common. That's why there is very little online about horse allergies; there is also very little online about panda bear allergies.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

This may sound dickish, but as someone who always has to pay extra for more legroom because the length of my thighs is longer than the standard seat pitch, when is being tall going to be declared a disability?

liability 7y ago
I'm pretty average height so I can't personally relate to this experience, but it does logically seem like you have a point. After all, it's not your fault you're so lanky; you were born that way (well.. you know what I mean.) Isn't that equally deserving of accommodation? I wish whoever downvoted you could explain themselves to help me understand why they think tall people shouldn't be reasonably accommodated.
- bradleyjg 7y ago
  (1) Disability The term "disability" means, with respect to an individual (A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual; ... (2) Major Life Activities (A) In general For purposes of paragraph (1), major life activities include, but are not limited to, caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping, walking, standing, lifting, bending, speaking, breathing, learning, reading, concentrating, thinking, communicating, and working.
  - liability 7y ago
    Okay, but why are tall people not also deserving of accommodation? That's the part I'm curious about.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      You can probably accommodate yourself by folding your legs up a bit. Sure that's uncomfortable, but economy-class commercial flight is uncomfortable. No one wonders why airlines charge very wide passengers for two seats. If your legs are so long that you can't fit in your seat, buy another seat or buy a first-class seat.

coldcode 7y ago

I cannot even sit in a normal plane due to my height, and yet people fly with a horse???? I really want to find some way to fly with a Pygmy Hippo. Or how about a friendly Caiman?

TylerE 7y ago
RTFA These are no bigger than a medium size dog.
- mkl 7y ago
  These look a lot bigger than a medium sized dog. Their bodies seem way bulkier. I'm only slightly taller than average, but couldn't fit a chihuahua in front of my knees in a plane, let alone a medium sized dog or miniature horse.

cscurmudgeon 7y ago

Nice to see NYT engaging in clickbait headlines.

kqr2 7y ago

More info on guide horses, including advantages: http://guide-horse.org/ http://guide-horse.org/

jessaustin 7y ago

Airport officials will sometimes ask for Cali’s official “horse ID,” Ms. Ramouni said. Unaware of any organization that offers such a thing, she and a friend eventually made a card themselves. OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards. Cali is used to going for long stretches without urinating... This is typical of horses, especially females like this one featured in TFA. They like to really stretch out their legs while urinating (I guess they don't like splashes?) and are only comfortable doing so in particular situations. Whereas they will defecate anywhere, so it's impressive that this animal has been trained not to do that.

scotty79 7y ago
> OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards. If you are asking for ID even though you don't know what ID should be provided or even if any is required then FU, you get the one written in crayons.
- ebg13 7y ago
  Someone I know relayed a story to me once wherein, at the passport gate into England she, a Canadian citizen, was held up by the passport control agent for not having a visa document. "Where's your visa?" "I don't need a visa, I'm a Canadian citizen. Your queen is my queen." "So you don't have one?" "Yes, because I don't need one."

u801e 7y ago

How do airlines accommodate passengers who have allergies to these animals? Do they let them know before the board that there will be an animal they're allergic to on board? Do they have to wait for the next flight, or does the passenger with the animal have to wait?