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It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Hopefully something like this comes to fruition and we learn more and more with every iteration. Solar roads are a

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Hopefully something like this comes to fruition and we learn more and more with every iteration. Solar roads are a great idea. Maybe it means it needs daily sweeping with electric vacuum trucks or something but if it’s producing enough electricity then it’s worth it.

nordsieck 7y ago
> It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. ... Solar roads are a great idea. It was a bad idea. Even in theory. The only positive thing about it is that it captured the imagination of lots of people who know nothing about solar or roads.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  The frustrating thing was that pretty every problem that arose during these trials were already known. Those who spoke up were ridiculed for being naysayers. There's a balance between those who reflexively oppose everything and those who have an informed opinion based on experience and knowledge. There was quite a bit of overlap between those who strongly supported solar roadways and the "I f*ing love science!" crowd that have turned science into something indistinguishable from magic. The original installation in Idaho ran into predictable problems almost immediately. The much larger installations had very little justification for going forward other than it was very popular with a rather vocal group of voters. Doubt any of the politicians, celebrities, or their fans who pushed this and dumped all over those with credible objections will apologize for their part in the boondoggle.
- Endy 7y ago
  I'm of two minds about what you're saying. On the one hand, it looked like a bold failure from the start. On the other hand, it put the idea of solar generation in "unorthodox" places into the minds of normal people and city planners alike. Solar roads aren't the way to go - but how many people, having heard about the project, encouraged their city to put up solar panels on all the light & phone poles? How many people have taken the enthusiasm from this project and looked to see where they could safely generate power from secondary sources in their own lives? So it's a great idea, and it's also a massive and fairly obvious failure at the same time. The message to take away from this isn't just "solar roads were a bad idea". It's that "solar roads are a bad idea, but we should keep looking at other ways to safely generate the energy we need around roads and urban passages."
- Mirioron 7y ago
  The only positive thing it did for me was kill my faith in humanity. The fact that this type of thing had enough credibility to get public money indicates an absurd level of failure in critical thinking.
Nextgrid 7y ago
I just don’t see how it’s worth it at all compared to putting solar panels on top of buildings. Solar panels on buildings don’t need to be as rugged, don’t need to be cleaned daily, etc, and they also can be oriented towards the sun to maximize output. Solar roads are a solution looking for a problem. I can imagine they’d be useful to squeeze out an extra few % of output in a world where everything else is covered in stationary panels, but we’re far from that so I don’t see why we should invest lots into them were the same investment would pay much more if it was about stationary panels.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  And the craziest thing is that the sunniest parts of the planet are completely uninhabited, so land is plentiful and cheap. As opposed to urban areas, which are the most expensive real estate that exists.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    Urban areas are also where electricity is needed. What do you mean by the "sunniest parts of the planet"? You mean the deserts? Not all countries have that luxury and maintenance might prove challenging, depending on the desert.
pgeorgi 7y ago
I think putting a roof on streets (on a relatively light aluminium/carbon fiber scaffold) for the panels is less outlandish than trying to fix "solar roads" by adding maintenance vehicles (or solar roads themselves, really). It keeps away rain (which improves driving), doesn't expose the panels to the weight of tractors, has similar safety properties (the panels need to react quickly on any accident related impact and isolate affected circuits to avoid electrocuting passengers), and if slanted, is somewhat self-cleaning in wind or rain. I agree though that it's nice that somebody did a field test. That idea sprang up again and again and it helps to have some real world data: people anticipated the cracking issue, but who argued against solar roads because of leaves killing the efficiency?
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > but who argued against solar roads because of leaves killing the efficiency? I had my concrete driveway pressure washed recently. It looked really good for about a week. Then leaves fell on it, and the leaves stained it brown again. All the engineers had to do was look at flat concrete.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    concrete is a permeable material, solar panels not so much. If you coat your driveway with a resin cover, the stains will probably disappear every time it rains. But nevertheless, it wasn't a talking point before - of course, with enough observation you can think of all possible failure modes beforehand. Sometimes it's easier to just try things out.
    - modriano 7y ago
      But anyone who has read a book about designing a home solar system can tell you that all of the literature tells you that you have to pick the location of your panels carefully so they aren't occluded by trees over part of the year because the power losses due to occlusion are significant and can make a system non-viable and non-economic. From the book I read [0] (although mine is the 2015 edition), not planning for obstacles is the #1 reason solar power system designs fail. I'm not sure why they didn't hire an experienced engineer for this multi-million Euro project. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electricity-Handbook-installing-photovoltaic/dp/1907670718 https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electricity-Handbook-installing...
lyjackal 7y ago
I'm all for trying things out, but this idea was always pretty crazy. It sounded nice at a very superficial level. Good solutions usually solve multiple problems, and this "solution" combined some problems... Seems like a smaller trial would have been just as effective
CamperBob2 7y ago
It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. I'm not. Research funding is very much a zero-sum game. Because they spent that much money trying something that stupid, it's safe to say that some actual good ideas either didn't get funded or had to make do with less. we learn more and more with every iteration There was nothing to learn here. It was easy to predict the outcome based on well-understood models, and countless people did.
nkrisc 7y ago
Why is building PV panels into the road better than putting them next to the road? Or in giant empty fields along roads?
- Slartie 7y ago
  Because minimizing ground covered with man-made stuff is a goal worth chasing. Leaves more of that thing called "nature" intact and doing its job, which - among other things - is to keep us alive and breathing. Hence the idea of dual-using those insanely large areas covered with concrete that we use as roads is a great one in principle. We do the same with rooftops already, and it works great. But roads appear to be much more challenging than rooftops.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    Some quick searching reveals various estimates of 1.6% to 0.7% of the US being paved over. That's including parking lots and cities, places that probably aren't good candidates for solar roads anyway. Seems like you might get greater benefit by sacrificing yet a little more of that thing called "nature" (never heard of it before, thanks for sharing, TIL) and realize actual benefit than using the same amount of resources to solarize roads for a fraction of the benefit. So I stand by my question.
tverbeure 7y ago
> Solar roads are a great idea. But why? There are plenty of arguments against it and hardly any in favor?
ben509 7y ago
I'm sure if we invested vast amounts of money into specially curved road surfaces we could make square wheels work[1]. That would still be dumb when compared to round wheels. The problem with solar roads is it's plainly worse than the obvious alternative: putting solar panels next to roads, or above carparks. And innovations that made them more plausible as a road surface are also going to make for a better regular road surface, or a better mounted solar panel. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8PPEKROz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8PPEKROz4
WalterBright 7y ago
> It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Maybe next they could design an airplane out of bricks. Or try using water as an automobile fuel. Or that silly experiment where they tried to make a jet fuel that wouldn't burn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y33N0raKZBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y33N0raKZBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyZeSgxmsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyZeSgxmsw

nordsieck 7y ago

> It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. ... Solar roads are a great idea. It was a bad idea. Even in theory. The only positive thing about it is that it captured the imagination of lots of people who know nothing about solar or roads.

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
The frustrating thing was that pretty every problem that arose during these trials were already known. Those who spoke up were ridiculed for being naysayers. There's a balance between those who reflexively oppose everything and those who have an informed opinion based on experience and knowledge. There was quite a bit of overlap between those who strongly supported solar roadways and the "I f*ing love science!" crowd that have turned science into something indistinguishable from magic. The original installation in Idaho ran into predictable problems almost immediately. The much larger installations had very little justification for going forward other than it was very popular with a rather vocal group of voters. Doubt any of the politicians, celebrities, or their fans who pushed this and dumped all over those with credible objections will apologize for their part in the boondoggle.
Endy 7y ago
I'm of two minds about what you're saying. On the one hand, it looked like a bold failure from the start. On the other hand, it put the idea of solar generation in "unorthodox" places into the minds of normal people and city planners alike. Solar roads aren't the way to go - but how many people, having heard about the project, encouraged their city to put up solar panels on all the light & phone poles? How many people have taken the enthusiasm from this project and looked to see where they could safely generate power from secondary sources in their own lives? So it's a great idea, and it's also a massive and fairly obvious failure at the same time. The message to take away from this isn't just "solar roads were a bad idea". It's that "solar roads are a bad idea, but we should keep looking at other ways to safely generate the energy we need around roads and urban passages."
Mirioron 7y ago
The only positive thing it did for me was kill my faith in humanity. The fact that this type of thing had enough credibility to get public money indicates an absurd level of failure in critical thinking.

Nextgrid 7y ago

I just don’t see how it’s worth it at all compared to putting solar panels on top of buildings. Solar panels on buildings don’t need to be as rugged, don’t need to be cleaned daily, etc, and they also can be oriented towards the sun to maximize output. Solar roads are a solution looking for a problem. I can imagine they’d be useful to squeeze out an extra few % of output in a world where everything else is covered in stationary panels, but we’re far from that so I don’t see why we should invest lots into them were the same investment would pay much more if it was about stationary panels.

toasterlovin 7y ago
And the craziest thing is that the sunniest parts of the planet are completely uninhabited, so land is plentiful and cheap. As opposed to urban areas, which are the most expensive real estate that exists.
- bad_user 7y ago
  Urban areas are also where electricity is needed. What do you mean by the "sunniest parts of the planet"? You mean the deserts? Not all countries have that luxury and maintenance might prove challenging, depending on the desert.

pgeorgi 7y ago

I think putting a roof on streets (on a relatively light aluminium/carbon fiber scaffold) for the panels is less outlandish than trying to fix "solar roads" by adding maintenance vehicles (or solar roads themselves, really). It keeps away rain (which improves driving), doesn't expose the panels to the weight of tractors, has similar safety properties (the panels need to react quickly on any accident related impact and isolate affected circuits to avoid electrocuting passengers), and if slanted, is somewhat self-cleaning in wind or rain. I agree though that it's nice that somebody did a field test. That idea sprang up again and again and it helps to have some real world data: people anticipated the cracking issue, but who argued against solar roads because of leaves killing the efficiency?

WalterBright 7y ago
> but who argued against solar roads because of leaves killing the efficiency? I had my concrete driveway pressure washed recently. It looked really good for about a week. Then leaves fell on it, and the leaves stained it brown again. All the engineers had to do was look at flat concrete.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  concrete is a permeable material, solar panels not so much. If you coat your driveway with a resin cover, the stains will probably disappear every time it rains. But nevertheless, it wasn't a talking point before - of course, with enough observation you can think of all possible failure modes beforehand. Sometimes it's easier to just try things out.
  - modriano 7y ago
    But anyone who has read a book about designing a home solar system can tell you that all of the literature tells you that you have to pick the location of your panels carefully so they aren't occluded by trees over part of the year because the power losses due to occlusion are significant and can make a system non-viable and non-economic. From the book I read [0] (although mine is the 2015 edition), not planning for obstacles is the #1 reason solar power system designs fail. I'm not sure why they didn't hire an experienced engineer for this multi-million Euro project. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electricity-Handbook-installing-photovoltaic/dp/1907670718 https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electricity-Handbook-installing...

lyjackal 7y ago

I'm all for trying things out, but this idea was always pretty crazy. It sounded nice at a very superficial level. Good solutions usually solve multiple problems, and this "solution" combined some problems... Seems like a smaller trial would have been just as effective

CamperBob2 7y ago

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. I'm not. Research funding is very much a zero-sum game. Because they spent that much money trying something that stupid, it's safe to say that some actual good ideas either didn't get funded or had to make do with less. we learn more and more with every iteration There was nothing to learn here. It was easy to predict the outcome based on well-understood models, and countless people did.

nkrisc 7y ago

Why is building PV panels into the road better than putting them next to the road? Or in giant empty fields along roads?

Slartie 7y ago
Because minimizing ground covered with man-made stuff is a goal worth chasing. Leaves more of that thing called "nature" intact and doing its job, which - among other things - is to keep us alive and breathing. Hence the idea of dual-using those insanely large areas covered with concrete that we use as roads is a great one in principle. We do the same with rooftops already, and it works great. But roads appear to be much more challenging than rooftops.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  Some quick searching reveals various estimates of 1.6% to 0.7% of the US being paved over. That's including parking lots and cities, places that probably aren't good candidates for solar roads anyway. Seems like you might get greater benefit by sacrificing yet a little more of that thing called "nature" (never heard of it before, thanks for sharing, TIL) and realize actual benefit than using the same amount of resources to solarize roads for a fraction of the benefit. So I stand by my question.

tverbeure 7y ago

> Solar roads are a great idea. But why? There are plenty of arguments against it and hardly any in favor?

ben509 7y ago

I'm sure if we invested vast amounts of money into specially curved road surfaces we could make square wheels work[1]. That would still be dumb when compared to round wheels. The problem with solar roads is it's plainly worse than the obvious alternative: putting solar panels next to roads, or above carparks. And innovations that made them more plausible as a road surface are also going to make for a better regular road surface, or a better mounted solar panel. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8PPEKROz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8PPEKROz4

WalterBright 7y ago

> It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Maybe next they could design an airplane out of bricks. Or try using water as an automobile fuel. Or that silly experiment where they tried to make a jet fuel that wouldn't burn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y33N0raKZBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y33N0raKZBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyZeSgxmsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyZeSgxmsw