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There are dozens of non-WeWork coworking spaces across Toronto.

by yao420 7y ago

endorphone 7y ago
For sure, though the common model seems to be going in a class B building on a highway somewhere on the periphery and setting up an incredibly drab, soul crushing office. I've worked for Bell and RBC -- I've already done the soul crushing office thing. I have absolutely no doubt that I've missed some good ones, but that's how WeWork made me interested in something that I'd put off for so long -- really nice looking interiors in great parts of town/great buildings. They are in no way a tech company, however their aesthetic and values do more closely mirror tech companies than a lot of their competitors that are low cost satellite office providers for low-tier organizations.
- stingraycharles 7y ago
  The reason WeWork is a better offering is that they’re losing money and investors are paying for this nice interior. This is all nice for customers, but makes for a shitty investment. WeWork doesn’t have any real competitive advantage when you want to turn it into a healthy, profitable company. Then it will just be any other coworking space; perhaps a more fancy one, but also more expensive.
  - dyarosla 7y ago
    You’re disregarding brand appeal. Starbucks has no real competitive advantage over Local Coffee Co. other than great location, decor and brand appeal too. Thats what OP argues were the deciding factors for them. To attribute nice decor as being nothing more than a sunk cost is erroneous at best.
    - CPLX 7y ago
      That's not correct. Starbucks has incredible economies of scale and purchasing power at this point. Clearly Wework has at least some economies of scale, but as for purchasing power not so much. The mass importation, distribution, and sale of a perishable agricultural product is a whole different kind of thing.
      - glaive123 7y ago
        Starbucks also has incredible gross margins of close to 60%. Almost as high as a SaaS business (70-95%). WeWork has 10-15% gross margins. "Gross margin is a company's net sales revenue minus its cost of goods sold (COGS). The gross margin represents the amount of sales revenue that the company retains after incurring the direct costs associated with producing the goods and services it sells."
        dyarosla 7y ago
        Starbucks does not have more competitive gross margins than Local Coffee Co. would to be a big enough differentiator.
      - dyarosla 7y ago
        Let’s go with your argument. What economies of scale and purchasing power would make for a differentiable competitive difference vs Local Coffee Co? Are those economies the driving force for Starbucks success? For their competitive advantage in the eyes of a consumer? WeWork is an international brand. Can you name another coworking space in nearby [state/country]? On the other hand there’s prob a WeWork there with a certain consistency wrt quality that you’d expect.
        CPLX 7y ago
        I can, Regus. They’ve been around forever, this business model is not novel. But the lack of examples doesn’t support the argument the way you think it does. That means it’s very much an open question if this model could ever be successful. Unlike chain food/beverage which is a highly proven business model.
        dyarosla 7y ago
        But you still haven’t given me an example. Thusly any competitor to come into this space would have to spend as much as WeWork at least to unseat them or to make a competitive brand for themselves. Sure the market’s not new, but the solidified brand in this market is. That counts for a lot.
    - southerndrift 7y ago
      Additionally to CPLX's point, they can also move profits into low-tax countries by licensing their brand. The fix costs for that are too high for a Local Coffee Co. to copy.
    - briandear 7y ago
      Starbucks also has product consistency. I know a Flat White in Kansas City will be the same as a flat white in Vancouver. If you like that product, that consistency is welcome.
      - dyarosla 7y ago
        So that would be a similar case for WeWork where you’d expect a bar for quality of offering
    - marmaduke 7y ago
      Starbucks has good coffee, at least in France it's the only good drip coffee I've found
- numbsafari 7y ago
  I don’t know about Toronto, but, here in Philly, we are at the Make Office at 20th and Market, diagonal to WeWork. We have private offices, better views, zero annoyance from fellow lessees (nobody leaning over to sell us insurance while we have headphones on, or harassing us about their recruiting services), pay half the rent (even less, now that we signed a long-term lease, previously we were month-to-month). As far as I can tell, the WeWork across the street has a nicer interior and better coffee. That’s it. That’s all. And it’s way more expensive and has a way more distracting culture.
- unreal37 7y ago
  Go visit them before you buy. I visted the WeWork office on Bloor last year, and it was more like a party than I would like. Seems like a great place to meet a future spouse. Not necessarily a great place for quiet, deep work without noise. They have a lot of social events. Seems to be their big selling feature. So if you are looking to prospect for customers like a real estate agent or something, maybe it's worth it.
- ValentineC 7y ago
  > I have absolutely no doubt that I've missed some good ones, but that's how WeWork made me interested in something that I'd put off for so long -- really nice looking interiors in great parts of town/great buildings. (I understand that most WeWork locations should look about the same, so…) I still don't get how their "private" offices have glass panes for walls. That's horribly unconducive for work.
- kevin_nisbet 7y ago
  There are definitely offices as good or better than WeWorks in the downtown core. Most of the companies will give you a free day or something so you can actually work there and see what it's like. We ended up at iQ offices, much quieter than WeWork. Workplace One's new location also seemed pretty compelling, just not in as good a location for those of us commuting on the go train. If internet speeds are important, make sure to ask about that, because most of the offices we talked to had pretty shit speeds.

There are dozens of non-WeWork coworking spaces across Toronto.

by yao420 7y ago

There are dozens of non-WeWork coworking spaces across Toronto.

For sure, though the common model seems to be going in a class B building on a highway somewhere on the periphery and setting up an incredibly drab, soul crushing office. I've worked for Bell and RBC -- I've already done the soul crushing office thing. I have absolutely no doubt that I've missed some good ones, but that's how WeWork made me interested in something that I'd put off for so long -- really nice looking interiors in great parts of town/great buildings. They are in no way a tech company, however their aesthetic and values do more closely mirror tech companies than a lot of their competitors that are low cost satellite office providers for low-tier organizations.

stingraycharles 7y ago
The reason WeWork is a better offering is that they’re losing money and investors are paying for this nice interior. This is all nice for customers, but makes for a shitty investment. WeWork doesn’t have any real competitive advantage when you want to turn it into a healthy, profitable company. Then it will just be any other coworking space; perhaps a more fancy one, but also more expensive.
- dyarosla 7y ago
  You’re disregarding brand appeal. Starbucks has no real competitive advantage over Local Coffee Co. other than great location, decor and brand appeal too. Thats what OP argues were the deciding factors for them. To attribute nice decor as being nothing more than a sunk cost is erroneous at best.
  - CPLX 7y ago
    That's not correct. Starbucks has incredible economies of scale and purchasing power at this point. Clearly Wework has at least some economies of scale, but as for purchasing power not so much. The mass importation, distribution, and sale of a perishable agricultural product is a whole different kind of thing.
    - glaive123 7y ago
      Starbucks also has incredible gross margins of close to 60%. Almost as high as a SaaS business (70-95%). WeWork has 10-15% gross margins. "Gross margin is a company's net sales revenue minus its cost of goods sold (COGS). The gross margin represents the amount of sales revenue that the company retains after incurring the direct costs associated with producing the goods and services it sells."
      - dyarosla 7y ago
        Starbucks does not have more competitive gross margins than Local Coffee Co. would to be a big enough differentiator.
    - dyarosla 7y ago
      Let’s go with your argument. What economies of scale and purchasing power would make for a differentiable competitive difference vs Local Coffee Co? Are those economies the driving force for Starbucks success? For their competitive advantage in the eyes of a consumer? WeWork is an international brand. Can you name another coworking space in nearby [state/country]? On the other hand there’s prob a WeWork there with a certain consistency wrt quality that you’d expect.
      - CPLX 7y ago
        I can, Regus. They’ve been around forever, this business model is not novel. But the lack of examples doesn’t support the argument the way you think it does. That means it’s very much an open question if this model could ever be successful. Unlike chain food/beverage which is a highly proven business model.
        dyarosla 7y ago
        But you still haven’t given me an example. Thusly any competitor to come into this space would have to spend as much as WeWork at least to unseat them or to make a competitive brand for themselves. Sure the market’s not new, but the solidified brand in this market is. That counts for a lot.
  - southerndrift 7y ago
    Additionally to CPLX's point, they can also move profits into low-tax countries by licensing their brand. The fix costs for that are too high for a Local Coffee Co. to copy.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Starbucks also has product consistency. I know a Flat White in Kansas City will be the same as a flat white in Vancouver. If you like that product, that consistency is welcome.
    - dyarosla 7y ago
      So that would be a similar case for WeWork where you’d expect a bar for quality of offering
  - marmaduke 7y ago
    Starbucks has good coffee, at least in France it's the only good drip coffee I've found
numbsafari 7y ago
I don’t know about Toronto, but, here in Philly, we are at the Make Office at 20th and Market, diagonal to WeWork. We have private offices, better views, zero annoyance from fellow lessees (nobody leaning over to sell us insurance while we have headphones on, or harassing us about their recruiting services), pay half the rent (even less, now that we signed a long-term lease, previously we were month-to-month). As far as I can tell, the WeWork across the street has a nicer interior and better coffee. That’s it. That’s all. And it’s way more expensive and has a way more distracting culture.
unreal37 7y ago
Go visit them before you buy. I visted the WeWork office on Bloor last year, and it was more like a party than I would like. Seems like a great place to meet a future spouse. Not necessarily a great place for quiet, deep work without noise. They have a lot of social events. Seems to be their big selling feature. So if you are looking to prospect for customers like a real estate agent or something, maybe it's worth it.
ValentineC 7y ago
> I have absolutely no doubt that I've missed some good ones, but that's how WeWork made me interested in something that I'd put off for so long -- really nice looking interiors in great parts of town/great buildings. (I understand that most WeWork locations should look about the same, so…) I still don't get how their "private" offices have glass panes for walls. That's horribly unconducive for work.
kevin_nisbet 7y ago
There are definitely offices as good or better than WeWorks in the downtown core. Most of the companies will give you a free day or something so you can actually work there and see what it's like. We ended up at iQ offices, much quieter than WeWork. Workplace One's new location also seemed pretty compelling, just not in as good a location for those of us commuting on the go train. If internet speeds are important, make sure to ask about that, because most of the offices we talked to had pretty shit speeds.